Cover arcs not working

[stikkypixie]

Would it be possible to change the cover arc logic. Sometimes the AI just completely ignores them. I know the AI takes autonomous action when it feels threatened, but right now it's almost impossible to lay an ambush.

[Clevinger]

Depends essentially of the experience level of the unit... I work just fine with veterans, but I think lower experiences may lead to unexpected results

[slug88]

Though I agree that the cover arc logic should be changed. As it is now, they're only useful for ambushes, and not much else.

Usually, when I think of setting a cover arc, the idea is that I want a unit to concentrate it's attention and it's firepower on the area within the arc. However, I still expect them to respond to threats outside of the arc. The way it's implemented presently, however, a unit will completely ignore contacts outside it's arc, unless they're green or conscript. So, that MG team that's supposed to be overlooking a line of trees, will completely ignore a squad that pops up with no cover 5m to the right of the tree line.

I believe that the current behavior should only be enacted when a combination of the cover arc plus the HIDE command is used. This would be useful for ambushes. However, when HIDE is not enabled, the unit should still happily engage outside it's cover arc, the only difference is that it should prioritize spotting and fire to within the cover arc.

[Dietrich]

I agree that the cover arc logic should be changed. As it is now, they're only useful for ambushes, and not much else.

"Not much else", eh? An interesting assessment.

I find that cover arcs are useful in a range of situations. For example, if I'm infiltrating my troops under cover of darkness (like in the opening mission of the USMC campaign), applying short-range 360-degree cover arcs to my infantry enhances their stealthiness -- instead of opening fire as soon as they spot enemy units and thus giving away their own position, they just report such contacts.

Also, cover arcs help scout units keep as low a profile as possible and thus remain unspotted (even if enemy units are relatively close, since there are few better ways to get spotted than to open fire) so they can continue providing valuable tactical reconnaissance.

When defending, at the beginning of a scenario I apply cover arcs to all units with LOS/LOF to the area(s) the enemy will be approaching or attacking from, so that they don't open fire prematurely and give away their position so the enemy can just pulverize them with artillery. I wouldn't call this ambushing per se -- it's more a matter of opening fire at a time and at an area of one's choosing rather than letting the TacAI do whatever it thinks is best.

Cover arcs are also handy when applied to turreted vehicles, as when you want an IFV's or an MBT's turret facing a different direction than its hull. (Though it's generally best to have the hull pointed in the direction of the enemy, which is usually the same direction one will need to shoot.)

[slug88]

"Not much else", eh? An interesting assessment.

I find that cover arcs are useful in a range of situations. For example, if I'm infiltrating my troops under cover of darkness (like in the opening mission of the USMC campaign), applying short-range 360-degree cover arcs to my infantry enhances their stealthiness -- instead of opening fire as soon as they spot enemy units and thus giving away their own position, they just report such contacts.

Agreed, it's very useful to prevent your men from opening fire too early. So let's say I give a Hunt + Hide command, with a 40m circular cover arc, and tell my men to go sneaking through the night. The intent is, they'll move stealthily, ignoring threats outside 40m, until either they reach their destination (at which point they'll lay a 40m ambush, this is what I want), or they'll stumble upon an enemy and engage at close range (again, this is good, wanted behavior), or, lastly, they'll be spotted and take fire from let's say an insurgent on a rooftop 50m away. Their hunt order is canceled and they hit the deck, their hide order is automatically canceled due to taking fire. However, their cover arc prevents them from returning fire. Thus, for the remainder of the turn, which could be a full 59 seconds, they'll lay there, or perhaps try to crawl to cover, without returning fire on an enemy that they can clearly see.

Also, cover arcs help scout units keep as low a profile as possible and thus remain unspotted (even if enemy units are relatively close, since there are few better ways to get spotted than to open fire) so they can continue providing valuable tactical reconnaissance.

See above. What if they get unlucky and they are spotted? You'd better hope whoever spotted them was within their cover arc.

When defending, at the beginning of a scenario I apply cover arcs to all units with LOS/LOF to the area(s) the enemy will be approaching or attacking from, so that they don't open fire prematurely and give away their position so the enemy can just pulverize them with artillery. I wouldn't call this ambushing per se -- it's more a matter of opening fire at a time and at an area of one's choosing rather than letting the TacAI do whatever it thinks is best.

I would still call this an ambush. Either way, this could be perfectly achieved with my idea of setting the current behavior to be applied when hide+arc is ordered.

Cover arcs are also handy when applied to turreted vehicles, as when you want an IFV's or an MBT's turret facing a different direction than its hull. (Though it's generally best to have the hull pointed in the direction of the enemy, which is usually the same direction one will need to shoot.)

Agreed, the ability to have set a turret facing independently from the hull facing is a nice feature. Except that when an enemy MBT appears 1 degree outside of the edge of said cover arc, your Abrams will ignore it, letting it pound away with 120mm. Again, my request is simply that, unless a HIDE command is issue, units engage outside their cover arc if and when they can!

[MikeyD]

Cover Arc in the game seems to especially annoy the control freaks (no offense meant). Some players simply do not like ambiguity in the game. They hate bogs, they hate the AI taking atlernate routes. And the idea that cover arc seems to me meant more as a 'suggestion' to the unit instead of a firm order is especially vexing.

[slug88]

Cover Arc in the game seems to especially annoy the control freaks (no offense meant). Some players simply do not like ambiguity in the game. They hate bogs, they hate the AI taking atlernate routes. And the idea that cover arc seems to me meant more as a 'suggestion' to the unit instead of a firm order is especially vexing.

To the contrary, I would expect that said control freaks are the ones who would prefer the current cover arc behavior. I would prefer it, in fact the very thing I am suggesting, is that the cover arc was more a suggestion than a firm order. If anything, the thing that's vexing is that the cover arc seems to be the one order that veteran and above units will strictly adhere to despite common sense and self preservation.

[hcrof]

I never saw cover arcs as a firm order. If there is a clear threat such as an enemy unit opening fire on the covering unit, the cover arc will be ignored. Likewise, a covering unit will open fire at things just out of range of the arc if they see fit - often to my annoyence.

Also, poorly disciplined reservists will just open up at everything that moves, whether there is a cover arc or not!

I like the cover arc system and while I would welcome a cover armour arc, I don't see the need for change

[slug88]

I never saw cover arcs as a firm order. If there is a clear threat such as an enemy unit opening fire on the covering unit, the cover arc will be ignored. Likewise, a covering unit will open fire at things just out of range of the arc if they see fit - often to my annoyence.

Also, poorly disciplined reservists will just open up at everything that moves, whether there is a cover arc or not!

I like the cover arc system and while I would welcome a cover armour arc, I don't see the need for change

Well, I see this behavior regularly, and it's more pronounced with more experienced units. Nothing worse than losing half of an Elite scout/sniper team because some enemy reservists popped up 5m outside their arc.

[stikkypixie]

Sure, I get the logic of having experience play a role. But it's a bit confusing when you compare it with other orders. Fire orders are always followed for example even if bigger threats appear (correct me if I'm wrong) and units always stay hidden even when the enemy is on top of them. Cover arcs on the other hand do give units freedom to act and I guess it's that inconsistency that's bothering me.

Also I feel that the AI doesn't have intelligence to be autonomously taking decisions like that. For example my RPG team fires at a vehicle 100m away because they feel threatened by it, only to be gunned down by an infantry team 50m away (which they can see). If they are surrounded by threats like that, I rather have them cower or route or surrender than doing something idiotic like that.

I don't remember being too bothered by this in CMx1, so if that AI behaviour can be emulated that would be great.

[Pandur]

cover arcs, yes, i pop in here after a long absence not writing posts.

actually i was about to open a new thread called "cover armor arc for normany!?", i guess i will still post this thread later on.

i would say iam one of these controll freaks, and i was quiet turned off by the cover arcs. by now i got used to it somehow but i cant say i enjoy the cover arcs.

i worked around the fact that verry low quality troops open fire up to 100m behond the cover arc by setting the cover arc about 50 to 70 meters short of the point i want em to open fire, this works quiet well except for the RPG guy in a group, for him to shoot a vehicle the vehicle needs to be "in" the arc or nearly inside.

also if you fear a premature action by one of youre low qual troops is about to happen, i gona hide em(still with their cover arc) and set a spotting unit up with a verry short 10 meters "hold fire" arc to spot for the other guys, and at the right moment i gona unhide em then. however this is a more suboptimal solution.

what me as a contol freak really pisses me off since long time is the missing "cover armor arc". i mean wth!?

how am i supposed to use all this supereb vehicle killers(RPG´s, javelins, vehicle mounted weapons blahblah) against a vehicle when my jav and RPG teams(not "so" bad with vehicles) open up on the first 2 man team wich enters their cover arc, engage it with their AT weapon and get cought in a fire exchange while poissibly the vehicle they waited for is comming rolling in now and will blast em to oblivion as they are fighting some worthless targets allready, no longer waiting in hide for the vehicle.

THAT pisses me off!

by now i gave up on the hope that a cover armor arc will ever make it to the syrian setting. however this setting would really benefit from it in my eyes.

nevertheless i realy hope it is included for the normandy game again. id hate so see my zooks/schrecks´s do the same as my AT teams do now.

[MikeyD]

Cover arc anomalies of course mean a lot less to Realtime players. Your units gets threatened and you're there immediately to turn it off and retarget. I don't usually use cover arcs if there's any chance my unit is going to get jumped from an odd direction. I use it mostly to keep that turret pointed up the road or that mg pointing towards the distant intersection.

One thing I've been experimenting with is turning my Bradley/Abrams TUSK ERA array broadside to the anticipated threat then using cover arc to rotate the turret in the threat's direction. I can't say yet if its a good idea or bad.