Vehicle capacities and task organization

[wargames mark]

I'm noticing some strange issues with the MTO&E in Combat Mission Shock Force. Specifically, I am unable to mount up all of my personnel in the assigned vehicles. I think this is due to a misunderstanding of how organization on paper translates to organization in the field.

FM 3-21.8 indicates that each Stryker Infantry platoon is equipped with 4 Stryker ICVs, and is assigned personnel for a headquarters element, 3 rifle squads, and a weapons squad. The rifle squads give you 9 personnel at full strength, and 3 of the 4 ICVs have 2 crewmen (a driver and a TC). One of the ICVs has only a driver, with the TC being provided by either a headquarters leader (PL or PSG) or by squad leader (such as the weapons squad leader.

Based on experience, it is not infrequent for some units (Combat Engineers, at least) to put their platoon sergeants and medics in a HMMWV or other conveyance that rides with combat trains, some distance behind the place where the action is happening. As the combat trains proceed forward, they overtake the fighting and the PSG and attached medic work with combat lifesavers to triage, apply immediate treatment, and evacuate casualties. The PSG also coordinates recovery of vehicles and the pushing forward of ammunition, water, and the like.

When you remove the PSG and medic from the platoon during an offensive action, you free up two positions in one of the ICVs. If you then put your PL in the TC position of one of the ICVs and then load up your platoon FO, RTO, and the complete weapons squad in the same ICV (making this the command "track") then you have mounted up all members of the platoon with the exception of those chopped to the combat trains (which are outside the scope of the game).

I recommend making an update to the game that reflects such an organization. Otherwise, platoons are going into battle in the game with only a portion of their total force.

(Check out the mechanized stuff as well. I haven't tried to build a scenario using them yet, but I expect the same problem may arise there - though the solution may be different. Also - Combat Engineers almost NEVER fight together as a company-sized force on the offense. When they do so, it is usually only to perform an emergency reorganization to fight as Infantry.)

I highly recommend looking at FM 3-21.8, FM 3-21.10, and FM 3-21.21 for information on the subject matter of the game.

After all that complaining, let me say (type, actually) that the graphics are great and the depiction of gunfire is the best I've seen.

[flamingknives]

From what I know, BFC take the data from relevant published documents and mix in note and experience from people with in depth knowledge of the organizations and usage. For the US forces they undoubtedly had the FMs.

I suspect that there will be a reason that they have done things the way they have.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I believe this is only an issue for the Stryker MOUT platoon, who have engineers attached. It should be possible to fit everyone in, with some devious squad splitting.

Your proposed method of splitting seems rather over-complicated for the uninitiated.

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All inf squads in the Strykers, 1 minus it's AT section. Then move the 4 men MG team with the squad missing their AT. Put the AT team in with HQ and the 3 man MG team. Presto!

[birdstrike]

First, welcome to the board.

Though I'm not quite sure if I see the problem - from what you listed, it seems the game got it right.

you get 4 strykers, each Stryker has room for 11 passengers, for the rifle squads that's 9 per the first three vehicles (with 2 seats left each) and for the 4th Stryker the PL commander+RO+FO (a single team in the game) + weapon squad (split in 3+4 in the game) = 10 (with 1 seat left).

The MOUT platoons are a little tricky, but if you split up the squads (can't remember exactly) you can get everyone aboard.

The only difference seems to be the 2nd crewmember on the command Stryker - which I guess has been altered because the Stryker would have been without a gunner, once the PL commander dismounts (in fact, the engineer platoons in the game had only a driver on the command vehicle, but players weren't all that happy about that )

[Apocal]

The rifle squads give you 9 personnel at full strength, and 3 of the 4 ICVs have 2 crewmen (a driver and a TC). One of the ICVs has only a driver, with the TC being provided by either a headquarters leader (PL or PSG) or by squad leader (such as the weapons squad leader).

ISTR, that only one between the PL/PSG actually dismounted and the other stayed mounted to coordinate the mounted portion of the platoon. A description of such a division of labor was in David Bellavia's "House to House", albeit with Bradleys rather than Strykers.

[ASL Veteran]

The thing that got me with the TO&Es was the Bradley dismount element. I always thought that the Bradley dismount element was only six guys but in CMSF it's nine just like the Stryker. I thought the main idea with the Stryker was that it could carry a bigger infantry squad vs the Bradley. Obviously there is the wheeled vs tracked thing and the lighter weight, but I was pretty sure the Bradley dismount element was only six guys vs the Stryker's nine guys. Am I crazy? I've been out for a long time though so I may just be hallucinating .

[Apocal]

The thing that got me with the TO&Es was the Bradley dismount element. I always thought that the Bradley dismount element was only six guys but in CMSF it's nine just like the Stryker. I thought the main idea with the Stryker was that it could carry a bigger infantry squad vs the Bradley. Obviously there is the wheeled vs tracked thing and the lighter weight, but I was pretty sure the Bradley dismount element was only six guys vs the Stryker's nine guys. Am I crazy? I've been out for a long time though so I may just be hallucinating .

Unless you enjoy doing a crazy split squad dance every time you want to mount your mechguys, the system is fine. It would drive me up the damned wall if I had to split those guys up like in real life.

[Dietrich]

The CM:SF manual explains that the passenger capacity for both the M2 BIFV and the M3 CFV was adjusted to alleviate the headaches of splitting squads and even teams to fit in the allotted vehicles (and splitting said squads/teams in ways which CM:SF does not allow for). The M2 BIFV has room for six dismounts; the M3 has room for just two.

What strikes me as funny (though quite mildly) is that not only can CM:SF's BIFVs carry fully nine men (rather than merely six as in real life), but the Armored Mech plt. HQ (IIRC) is just one man, and it looks odd to see just one green dot out of eight on the vehicle's display. It makes me think: "Hey, there's room for eight more guys in that Bradley. Too bad the platoon TO&E doesn't include a couple o' MMG teams...."

[ASL Veteran]

For the curious I managed to find this for the dismounted portion of the Bradley platoon:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-21-71/figa-2.gif

and this for the mounted portion of the Bradley platoon:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-21-71/figa-1.gif

At first I thought that CMSF gave the Bradley platoon too many pixeltruppen, but now I realize that the number of troops is the same.

[Apocal]

I really wonder how they managed to make-do back when the Brad only seated six. It'd be like a platoon... but smaller.