Operation Z AAR Scott vs. Steelman

[scottsmm]

In an effort to finally come to a valid conclusion about the true value of the outer islands, I have started out a second game with Tracy who seems to have an interest in these islands. I'm sure most of the people reading this right now, know about my game with Tim, and that I totally bypassed these islands, as I saw them as a waste of time and resources. However in this game I expect that the outer islands will be contested and hopefully we can finally solve this nagging question.

This game has already started and is currently in the early phases of 1942, with my opponent claiming all the initial objectives (Malaya, Philippines, Wake, Guam, Hong Kong, Thailand, Foochow, and Burma). My opponent also has the Japanese navy attacking the outer islands, likely in preparation for an amphibious assault. Note I'm on vacation tomorrow so there isn't going to be much added to this thread over the course of the next week and a half or so.

[Timskorn]

Will be interesting to see, but from our game I'm definitely convinced the outer islands are useless. Japan can garrison them all they want, with whatever they want. The USN can just skirt underneath Australia, link up with the RN and start pushing for Japan through the DEI and Burma. Japan will have many of its valuable forces sitting on islands while the bulk of Allied actions will be elsewhere. If Japan can somehow threaten the Allies by having air forces and ground forces in the outer islands, I'd love to see it in action!

In our game I ignored the islands in favor of focusing all my forces against India, and it still wasn't enough. What does Japan propose to do against the Allies by scattering all those valuable forces around? Had I garrisoned those islands you could have still went underneath Australia and hit me in Burma and DEI, except not only would I have done less damage to the British but I'd have less forces to counter you with in those areas.

Right now I'm convinced that Japan must focus all her air, naval and land forces to the early accomplishment of an objective. Go for Australia, British India, China, Russia or US. Do something early to take advantage of the short window of opportunity Japan has before the US can turn the tide. Sitting out on islands waiting for the US, who can easily bypass those forces, is a waste of time in my opinion. It's even a bigger waste if you put them out there early and the US builds up until late 1943 to attack. They'd be twiddling their thumbs for 2 years before seeing combat, and in that time you could have used them in China or Burma, at least.

But again, I'd love to be proved wrong!

[arado234]

Scottsmm id be real impressed if those outer Islands help Japan in anyway at all.

[scottsmm]

Guys two things. One I do agree that the outer islands are nothing but a waste of time, but if my opponent wants to prove me wrong then he should at least be given that opportunity. Not only that, but I'm beginning to feel there is a misconception going on, and that is the fact my opponent is playing as Japan, and I'm the Allies.

My opponent has a big advantage in this game, as he knows it. This advantage is of course that he knows all my secrets that I used against Tim. Therefore he could attempt to ambush the US navy, if he takes these islands out, and if he can do this then he will be able to prove there is some value to these islands. Not to mention the fact that his ships gain experience by bombarding villages in these islands while they don't take a single strength point of damage in the process. Needless to say I do have a different strategy, than what I used against Tim and only time will tell what this strategy is.

p.s Tim I used those islands as transport hubs for my US units, so if you ever had a carrier in the vacinty with some escort it could have been a disaster for the Allies.

[SeaMonkey]

ahem! One more time. Its simple, give the carriers a single very effective naval strike only, with only a dim chance at causing ground unit casualties as an alternative mission. That way you have to concentrate enormous CV power for invasions to deal with garrisons, or take the nearby islands to base Tactical and strategic Bombers for reduction.

Next, give the land based air deadly naval attack powers so that basing them on islands makes it very risky for task forces to come into their proximity without adequate land based fighter cover.

Now can you see the value of islands?

[scottsmm]

SM I'm sure Tim would strongly support your vision on carriers, as 1-2 of his units defending Japan are being wiped out by CV strikes alone, not to mention the new land based bombers and fighters he will soon have to confront, and a special surprise I have for him

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Question is thus begged: why did Japan go to all that trouble and expense in the real war to take and garrison all these islands? Control of convoy lanes is certainly part of it, but the game doesn't model many historic convoy routes (such as US to Australia Lend-Lease), and doesn't model supply convoys at all. The other problem is needing to waste at least a corps-level unit as a garrison when many islands were only held by brigade-sized forces. Air units same thing-you might have 1-4 squadrons of fighters/bombers on an island, but in SC again you really can't spare all the air units needed to base most of these islands. So you lose the recon value that an air unit would give you as well as the contribution it may provide to any nearby naval battles.

I guess what we need is a huge map (eliminating armies while upgrading corps to the army slot, leaving division/brigade-sized units in the corps slot). Combine that with more (read: cheaper) air units, and perhaps you might get something more historical. The real issue is that the game poorly models the crappy logistics situation in China (absent partisans of course), the real reason why Japan didn't penetrate too deeply inland in most cases. Maybe change partisans to events which damage cities, a la the "Malta" event in earlier SC2 titles?

[scottsmm]

Tracy and I have mutually agreed that it might be in our best interest to start over again when I get back from Europe.

[Colin I]

The strategy of Japan may well have been an error. The idea was to form a defensive region of island strongpoints to keep the US a long way from Japan.

Its true they were not easy to take but they were fairly easy to isolate or bypass. Its quite possible the US assaulted more than it needed. Unless the island was a base for a significant naval or air presence it really wasn't much use strategically. If it was a significant threat US could concentrate sufficient forces to win.

I wonder if Japan should get a few reduced bomber units that cannot be reinforced - these would have great spotting value from islands. As others point out, the three full bombers can do this butr its a waste when China or India is in dispute.

[Bill101]

The real issue is that the game poorly models the crappy logistics situation in China (absent partisans of course), the real reason why Japan didn't penetrate too deeply inland in most cases. Maybe change partisans to events which damage cities, a la the "Malta" event in earlier SC2 titles?

Hi John

I'm a little confused by this as in a normal game there will be loads of supply hits damaging Japanese occupied cities in China, and as Japanese I find them a major pain in the neck, especially when coupled with US bombing raids.

I am of course open to suggestions that they be increased in number, but there are already so many that I don't want to jump in there and do it without good reason. How many more do you think there should be?

Thanks

Bill

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I haven't bought the game (yet-money issues mainly); from reading all the AARs I keep hearing about partisans popping up here and there (which when they do they inflict supply hits on nearby Japanese cities)-I did not know there were separate supply hit events as well.

[Timskorn]

Yes, there seems to be plenty of Chinese partisans in the game. Even if cities are garrisoned they still hit your supply lines, and if they aren't garrisoned they take them over. Then you have partisans who pop up out of the hills once in awhile behind the lines. The drawback for a successful Japanese invasion is you have more units sitting back doing guard duty in occupied towns. Not exactly the best use of a limited commodity.

[SeaMonkey]

You can actually model the historical use of island strongholds by operating your air units around. I know its a bit expensive and I know there are not many available, but you could(as I've expressed b/4) give them double strike capability.

Again, as historical, you can isolate certain islands, but not all and only intermittently as the location of HQs make the properly garrisoned island stronghold very dangerous if the CTVs are adjusted to make landbased air deadly to naval units.

One thing Nupremal did in his mod, which I agree with, is he turned anti-tank units into garrison units and gave each major the ability to produce plentiful numbers.

Now these modifications don't substitute the obvious need for the supply net that has been spoken of many times, but at least with the current PTO model it helps bring in a little more historical perspective to the mechanics.

[Colin I]

Spotting needs some work, its so crucial to Pacific theatre. I don't want too many minor units but do feel some air detachments are needed for spotting purposes by Japan.

Not sure the kamikaze units are ideal here, guess if they report back there was a target they failed in their mission ;-)

Really must play Nupremal mod - the change from antitank to garrison is excellent.

[Bill101]

I haven't bought the game (yet-money issues mainly); from reading all the AARs I keep hearing about partisans popping up here and there (which when they do they inflict supply hits on nearby Japanese cities)-I did not know there were separate supply hit events as well.

Yes, there are plenty of them, with both Nationalists and Communists active in China, and although there can be quiet spells, at other times (usually when you could really do without it!) they will all of a sudden flare up like crazy.

In a recent game I had three cities hit in one turn by Communists, and along with Chennault's bombing raids, my Japanese troops in central China were suddenly down to supply of 2-3. Suffice it to say that my offensive was stalled for some time as a result!