Not Another AAR?! Tux Vs Mylgas 2: Double Or Quits

[Heinrich505]

Wow, high drama on the soggy plains. I was sure your Sherman was the proverbial toast on that one, but you have again played upon providence and received a reprieve. How many times do you get to unbog your Tiger? I usually only get one shot at it, and then I've got a really cool looking pillbox...

Lots of action. Keep up the good work. There is plenty of tension in the air.

Heinrich505

[Vark]

Sorry, I'm the only one who is puzzled by Myglas' tactics? Why the head to head with the IS-2, surely recon with infantry then introduce the Tiger, has he not seen "The Big Red One"? Seriously, I've followed this AAR avidly, most tactics seem understandable but the Tiger gambit seemed a little reckless, or am I missing the bleedin obvious?

[Tux]

He had infantry everywhere, which my IS-2 had fired a shot at, so I find it very difficult to believe that he did not know what his Tiger was in for. All I can think is that he must have hoped that the IS-2 missed its first shot (perhaps based on how short of the mark its first HE shot fell) and that the Tiger was subsequently allowed to get off two-three shots at penetrating the turret front. The odds on him achieving that were far too low for it to make tactical sense, but if he had then the rewards would have been fairly rich.

I can also only think that he assumed the gun I had in the vicinity (which he must have spotted beforehand when it was en route to the setup zone) was a 45mm or 76mm type. He simply can't have knowingly pushed his Tiger forwards to face a 57mm ATG and an IS-2 at 100m range, can he?

[Vark]

Good, thought I was missing the bleedin obvious....again. another Big Red One scene comes to mind; quit bellyaching son you've only lost a Tiger, that's why you were given two!! Good to see his Tigers are bogging repeatedly, I remember the Korsun relief scenario on the CD, I just kept all my armour roadbound!! Does anyone know the chance to get smoke shells if you but Tigers individually?

[Vark]

Should read buy not but!!

[Joachim]

Some people do not calculate their risks and chances but hope on luck. Whenever there is an opportunity for a duel, they grab it.

[Tux]

I'm not sure what the chances of getting smoke rounds for a Tiger are, but I don't think they're high. I think, in general, Tigers are expected to blow up threats rather than just obscure them...

Turn 24

TFB's Sherman fires off the last of its smoke rounds (worth their weight in gold so far during this fight) in order to provide a complete LOS block to the nearby Tiger, and then advances fast towards the crest of the shallow rise it has been sheltering behind. From here I hope it will be able to spend the next minute interdicting troops movements in the areas marked by the blue arrow below:

Unfortunately, the Tiger has unbogged itself a second time and is reversing back the way it came, towards the road. A couple of points: If it does head for the road, it should die at the hands of my ATG and IS-2. If Mylgas sticks to the open ground beyond the bend in the road ahead of my units then he will pass beyond their LOS and should be able to save his Tiger. Damn...

Meanwhile, my central tanks are in action harassing Mylgas' attempts to cross the main road with infantry. One unit in particular comes under heavy MG fire from both my IS-2 and my HQ Sherman before both let fly with HE. The Sherman is spot on target but I can't help thinking that, if only the IS-2 gunner could aim his HE rounds worth a damn, this infantry unit would no longer exist. As it is it is routed into cover on the far side of the road.

Finally, my MG-carrier has come under attack this turn - by a mortar! I would have considered such a weapon to be far better employed against some of my nearby infantry units, but there you go. As it is no damage is caused, and I have studied the spread of the impacting rounds to try and locate the offending unit:

TFA's tank and an infantry section have been assigned to area fire at this 'crew' contact next turn. My carrier has been ordered to whizz around to my central tanks where it will pick up the PHQ of my foremost platoon. Hopefully I can then keep my platoon in command without exposing their HQ unduly during their assault.

I have also just noticed that I have only got five minutes left in this battle. I may have to get this assault going sooner than I hoped. Not that that's a problem - most of the units are in position now anyway.

[Tux]

Turn 25

Despite the area fire orders given to disrupt Mylgas' mortar, it keeps firing. 30s into the turn my Carrier finally gets around to starting to move, but too late...

This is probably the single most annoying event to have happened during the entire game because I was pleased to have found a good use for an otherwise useless machine. As it is the survivors that remain in my advanced platoon's HQ will have to support their men on foot and without armour protection.

Elsewhere on the map little happens. An HMG 42 is identified at the far end of the main road and it forces my HQ Sherman's commander to button. The nearby IS-2 sprays the enemy gun with MG fire, levels its main gun barrel and shoots... hopelessly off target. Again. The damned thing has now loosed three 122mm HE shells at german infantry targets and not one has landed close enough to have caused any casualties (which is saying something). Disappointing...

My orders for Turn 26 have my advanced platoon finally launching an assault on the area surrounding the flag. They have two Shermans and an IS-2 in support/ overwatch, as well as a Maxim MG, an 82mm mortar and a rifle-armed Pioneer section. I just hope any defenders in the area under attack are suppressed by that lot before they can slaughter my attacking men...

[DavidFields]

Wow.

Wow.

I have been away for more than a month, and let me count all the ways I was wrong and Tux was correct.

1. TFB proved to be extremely useful, distracting a Tiger and a bunch of infantry. This, perhaps, set up the only-single-Tiger charge in the middle.

2. For the first 10 turns, it looked like the Russian unit quality was High School, versing pro-quality Germans. How could the Russians EVER possibly do well, I thought.....oh....looking more promising now.

3. I knew IS-2 were good (though I mostly do early war scenarios). But they don't have the "hot" sound of "Tiger". But I see that moved carefully, in a pair, to a good position...

4. I thought JasonC was essentially always correct on tactical matters. But I disagree with the idea of pushing Tiger on the flank. Not because it did not work this time, but because there was inherently too much risk in bogging/infantry trap/flank shotted, even if the Tiger got the Sherman. With that AFV, especially in these conditions, it would seem to me that less movement, and keeping the Tigers central, is the stronger move.

Watching you maneuver, Tux is interesting....it is not just the position, but the psychology.....inducing people to do less than perfect things [reminds me of a chess analysis on a line on the Sicilian Defense "white will find the temptation to attack the king side overwhelming, will do so, and will lose".]

[DavidFields]

[sorry for second post. I can't figure out how to edit]

Since I was so incorrect with my impressions 1/3 through this battle, I will just ask questions:

1. In the coming Russian attack, to what extent is killing Germans (with good loss ratios) important, versus taking or threatening the flag?

2. I would think in an ME, attacking is a disadvantage (particularly when the AFVs have long effective ranges, making isolating part of the map unlikely). Why then, with position on the flag, and in cover, would the Germans have attacked? Why not wait to possibly get a chance at Russian units in the open, moving, unclear where the enemy is? Or is the pounding from the IS-2's simply too damaging to take?

[Ah...now this thread is going to get me to go back into CMBB, to attempt 21st Counterattack, which has thus far eluded my ability to concentrate enough on]

[Mies]

....

[Ah...now this thread is going to get me to go back into CMBB, to attempt 21st Counterattack, which has thus far eluded my ability to concentrate enough on]

Same here. Dusted of the old disk and installed it. Now only have to convince my better half that it's vital for me to play a game.......

[Tux]

Wow.

Wow.

I have been away for more than a month, and let me count all the ways I was wrong and Tux was correct.

1. TFB proved to be extremely useful, distracting a Tiger and a bunch of infantry. This, perhaps, set up the only-single-Tiger charge in the middle.

2. For the first 10 turns, it looked like the Russian unit quality was High School, versing pro-quality Germans. How could the Russians EVER possibly do well, I thought.....oh....looking more promising now.

3. I knew IS-2 were good (though I mostly do early war scenarios). But they don't have the "hot" sound of "Tiger". But I see that moved carefully, in a pair, to a good position...

4. I thought JasonC was essentially always correct on tactical matters. But I disagree with the idea of pushing Tiger on the flank. Not because it did not work this time, but because there was inherently too much risk in bogging/infantry trap/flank shotted, even if the Tiger got the Sherman. With that AFV, especially in these conditions, it would seem to me that less movement, and keeping the Tigers central, is the stronger move.

Watching you maneuver, Tux is interesting....it is not just the position, but the psychology.....inducing people to do less than perfect things [reminds me of a chess analysis on a line on the Sicilian Defense "white will find the temptation to attack the king side overwhelming, will do so, and will lose".]

Very interesting post, Rankorian. It is always fascinating for me to read other people's impressions of how the game is going.

One or two points: TFB was useful in its intended role as a feint, yes, but I didn't think it would get quite so ruthlessly beaten up and destroyed quite so quickly! As it happened I only just had time to take advantage of Mylgas' slight loss of positioning. Overall I think the infantry acted as bait, and then, when he'd wiped the floor with them, Mylgas was in just the right mood to pursue my fleeing Sherman for just enough time to allow me to settle into the position I wanted.

IS-2s are extremely capable AFVs, obviously. I tend to use them as turreted, over-armoured assault guns though. The likelihood that they will miss their first shot, combined with their critically low rate of fire, makes it very risky to duel cats at close range. At longer ranges they do better, but opponents often have time to disengage before the IS-2 can land a telling shot. Overall the only reason I would buy an IS-2 over an ISU-122 is for the turret, since I use them both in more or less the same manner.

[sorry for second post. I can't figure out how to edit]

Since I was so incorrect with my impressions 1/3 through this battle, I will just ask questions:

1. In the coming Russian attack, to what extent is killing Germans (with good loss ratios) important, versus taking or threatening the flag?

2. I would think in an ME, attacking is a disadvantage (particularly when the AFVs have long effective ranges, making isolating part of the map unlikely). Why then, with position on the flag, and in cover, would the Germans have attacked? Why not wait to possibly get a chance at Russian units in the open, moving, unclear where the enemy is? Or is the pounding from the IS-2's simply too damaging to take?

[Ah...now this thread is going to get me to go back into CMBB, to attempt 21st Counterattack, which has thus far eluded my ability to concentrate enough on]

My opinions:

1. I think the odd infantry casualties that I have caused add up with the Tiger I have killed to more-or-less even out the scores as far as casualties are concerned. Either way it is crucial that any engagements which occur during my attack result in a favourable kill/loss ratio for my forces. I'm not sure how easy that will be though, so my priority (after minimising casualties) is to at least contest the flag.

2. Waiting for the Germans to take up position on the flag and then attacking them does put me at a disadvantage, yes, but it was a calculated risk. The Germans are being forced to stay quiet by the weight of direct HE I have arrayed against them, but by so doing they are not being harmed, which is a worry for me.

[Tux]

Turn 26

The turn begins and my men set out to follow their advance orders. The foremost section meet very little resistance - the one MG42 that does open up, from range, is quickly silenced by my IS-2 and Sherman overwatch. They quickly make it to cover and take a breather less than 100m from the flag. The second section is not so lucky, and takes a concerted burst of MG and rifle fire from the left, and also small arms fire from the right. It seems that Mylgas is pushing his recently-uprooted flank platoon back into combat and they have immediately had an effect, making my advancing green section dive for cover and then begin crawling slowly back towards the building to their rear, between my two tanks.

In my orders for Turn 27 both of my central Shermans are ordered to area fire at the building cover of Mylgas' flanking unit. It shouldn't last long.

The other major development in this turn is for Mylgas' second Tiger to reappear. It is reversing back towards his centre, but does gain brief LOS to TFB's Sherman. Both tanks shoot and miss and then LOS is broken.

At the end of the minute I uncover a worrying fact: If Mylgas pushes his Tiger up towards the main road it is possible for him to engage my central Sherman without gaining LOS to my 57mm ATG. Obviously this will not do, so in the next minute I am reversing said Sherman to make sure that it cannot be engaged independently of the gun.

Other orders include a command for my 82mm mortar to area fire at the MG and Grenadier section on my central platoon's left. Finally, I am ordering the one remaining section from my central platoon to advance along the route followed by the green section which has been panicked. They are regulars and the firepower arrayed against them should be suppressed, so I expect them to do a lot better and successfully reach their destination.

[Tux]

Turn 27

Everything goes without a hitch. Within 20 seconds my two Shermen have unleashed a flurry of HE shells at Mylgas' flanking section's cover, and the building is in rubble.

My mortar also does sterling work, and none of Mylgas' units are up and firing beyond 30 seconds.

Very little else happens. Hopefully in the next minute or so Mylgas' second Tiger will emerge to add ~200 points to my score.

[Joachim]

2. I would think in an ME, attacking is a disadvantage (particularly when the AFVs have long effective ranges, making isolating part of the map unlikely). Why then, with position on the flag, and in cover, would the Germans have attacked? Why not wait to possibly get a chance at Russian units in the open, moving, unclear where the enemy is? Or is the pounding from the IS-2's simply too damaging to take?

Attacking is a disadvantage because the defender is usually hidden, in prepared positions and can chose when to open up (compare it to Clausewitz statement of the defender having the initiative). From carefully pre-selected places with LOS checked while setting up, units positioned to support each other etc.

Attacking an enemy that has moved, is usually spotted and not in mutually supporting positions means attacking an enemy that gave up all of these advantages. That's why German doctrine urged to counter-attack instead of waiting for reinforcements

Thus in a ME the side stopping earlier with no LOS established yet is more like the "actual defender" as it is mostly unseen, can open up on favorable terms and could deploy without incoming, which usually means according to plan. Having lots of intel about the enemy helps avoiding risks. It lets you calculate your chances better and you need less reserves to cope with yet unseen enemies, thus you can use a larger part of your force in the initial exchange of fire - thus increase the odds.

An example is Tux' 57mm ATG. Once located it is most likely dead.

The only problem is that deploying too far back means you won't get a chance to open up - so choose the location carefully. You must destroy enough enemy forces to achieve attacker odds near the flag.

[Vark]

Was it a German planned attack or a deployment caught moving that then transitioned into an offensive action following the attack is the best form of..dictum? I'm still surprised at the way the Tigers have been used, the KO'd Tiger seemed to attack without any coordination between infantry and armour. I thought a sneaking half squad/tank hunter could at least have preceded the behemoths charge. Still it's only when we hear from Myglas will we get the true picture, so I will sit back and watch the game unfold.

[Flying Column]

Keeping the two Tigers together and he'd be in a really strong position

Once you split a force like that, you are giving your opponent a chance

[DavidFields]

I have never done PBM (using the old terminology, since Play by Mail goes back to when I was playing chess by post-cards, and board games by checking stock results)but Tux, after this, if you could guide me through it, I would be interested in a match, preferably a not a QB. [My interest being early war battles]

[Tux]

Ok Rankorian, let me finish this game off like you said and then we can play a game of your choice.

Just so you know, I've decided that this will be my last AAR for a little while. I have a lot less time on my hands than I did when I started writing them and I think that, apart from anything, the quality of report has suffered a great deal as a result. I rarely have the time necessary to write interesting and detailed reports of turns and so I end up holding back turns from Mylgas so that I don't end up with five to write up at once. This means that my opponent suffers, as do my tactics and my enjoyment of the game.

Before then, though, I have two more turns for you all and then the battle result (when I get around to writing them up)!

[Vark]

As my students seem to be suffering from heat exhaustion and flu let me grab this opportunity to say THANK YOU for many a happy hour spent with your AAR's, they should be used as a template for how to do it. I found the clearly marked maps made it so much easier to follow the action and you always seemed to end most of your posts on a cliff hanger!!

[Heinrich505]

Tux,

I was sorry to hear that you'll be cutting back on your AARs for the forum, due to a lack of time. I've looked forward to your action accounts and will be sorry to see them become more infrequent - key on your statement "last AAR for a while" which implies they won't go away completely, thank heaven. The many demands on free time seem to be growing and leisure time becomes a scarce commodity. I was putting out fictionalized accounts of battles as AARs over at TSDII pretty regularly, but now find I have less time and had to cut back myself.

I agree with Vark. Your battle accounts generally left us readers wondering what would happen with the next turn - did he get the shot off or did he blow up instead kind of situations. Very nicely done.

I have enjoyed your battle accounts greatly, and judging from your following on this thread, many others do as well. Thanks for sharing your enjoyment of this game.

And now....back to the battle. The repositioning of Mylgas' Tiger may present problems, as he won't push this one into a precarious position, and he will have infantry support to cover movement. You may have to advance your ISU giving him the first shot, if your infantry start to falter. Then your 57mm gun won't be able to assist much.

We wait, watch, and ponder the action to come.

Heinrich505

[Joachim]

@Tux:

Thanks for the good and enjoyable work!

(Well, enjoyable for the readers )

[Joachim]

Now for the tactics:

I wouldn't move the IS. Killing those inf that fire at yours, maybe some smoke to cover your inf advance. The IS has an awesome ROF. Tiger gets 1st, 3rd and 4th shot.

Odds:

Odds in a duel, Tiger vs IS at short ranges. I guestimate both have the same kill chance on that range. Tiger hits better, but IS kills better when it hits

25% for a first shot kill of the IS

(1-25%)*25% for the death of the Tiger

(1-25%)*(1-25%)*25% for the death of the IS

(1-25%)^3*25% for the death of the IS

The sum is clearly in favor of the Tiger.

So if that flag doesn't mean everything, the gain ain't worth the risk.

Result if you kill the Tiger:

Lots of points. But you still don't own the flag. Even inf can kill your IS closing in towards the flag. Still a solid win, as each Tiger is worth a flag. Plus you lost time better spent on suppressing the inf that stops your inf advance.

Result if you lose the IS:

Sound loss.

Result if you just kill the inf in reach and try to advance your inf

You risk a few points in inf, but should score some kills, too. Maybe mylgas does something stupid with his Tiger to keep the flag. He needs points, too.

If not much happens, you should get a marginal victory. If you manage to contest the flag with your inf, you should score better. If you go for the duel, you will most likely loose.

[John Kettler]

Joachim,

In describing the IS-2's ROF, you meant to write "awful" rather than "awesome," didn't

you? If not, color me highly perplexed!

Tux,

Understand the why, but will miss your wonderful AAR/DARs. Speaking as someone who wrote CM novellas himself during the Invitational and a bunch of ROWs, I understand what a time sink they are to produce--and most of mine had no screenshots, let alone legends!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Joachim]

@John

Depends on which side you play

But yes, for Tux it would be awful.