How to use the recon HMMWV

[Bungers]

Gday All,

While not exactly new to CMSF, I am looking for some advice on how best to use the recon HMMWV to maximise the benefits of its optic suite.

I usually end up using it to "unmask" the enemy positions by sending it towards likely locations while being overwatched by armoured units and wait for it to be shot to pieces then return fire.

Any tips on how to better use it other than as a judas goat?

Thanks.

[Israelistyle]

I wanted to ask the exact same question!

[RadioactiveMan]

I park them in the back up high somewhere and let them overwatch from there. Don't know if this is a useful tactic, but it keeps them out of the line of fire. I just can't stomach sending those boys out in front to become bullet magnets. Burning vehicles make me instinctively reach for the Load Game button...

There is a good example of this issue in the TF Thunder Campaign (mission 3?) You start w/ some recon humvees and a Bradley and you get some reinforcements over the first 10 minutes. At 5 min you get a platoon of Strykers and at 10 min a platoon of Abrams tanks. You are up against infantry in trenches with machine guns/RPGs/ATGMs and some syrian tanks. This mission provides a decent opportunity to test out ways to use the Recon vehicles on open ground. Typically for this mission I end up arranging my units in this mission in the opposite order from which they arrive. Thus: the tanks go up front, followed by the strykers, followed by the humvees. I try to keep ~200 meters between these groups... This keeps the thinner skinned vehicles well back where they can shoot or, in the case of the recon vehicles, where they can overwatch and (hopefully) radio in any targets they sight. Typically, however, I have to dismount my infantry if I want to get any really decent spotting done.

[MikeyD]

The theory is you're using them forward of your line in Recon which is almost suicidal in-game. The M707 Humvee's in the game because its fielded in real life. Sometimes real-world equipment just isn't very compatible with game maps. There's few maps out there where you can park a recon humvee that an enemy mg can't reach. To say nothing about Kornets! Stationary and unbuttoned peering over a distant crest is how you use the M707 in real life. In-game they're often the sacrificial unit sent forward to draw fire.

[snake_eye]

I have found out, that to bring the M707 forward is suicidal has it has been said. Remaining at the rear is better, but it brings the intelligence value of the M707 to a nil.

What to do ? Something in between, not to much in view of the enemy, but sufficient to be able to spot it and if air and or artillery and or mortars are available you will be able to call them very quickly (artillery and mortars around 4 minutes and less) .

Since, I have found that, I preserve the m707, since the grunt being in the ring and looking through its apparels brings mortars and or artillery on the enemy quicker than the FO. I don't know if it is the same every time. I use ever since the M707, that I was leaving behind on many battles not knowing what to do of it besides sending him to its fate.

[MikeyD]

It also depends on the battle type. If you've got a clever human opponent or an attacking AI you can rush the M707 to a possible enemy route of andvance and have him sit and watch.

I get the feeling most of the M707's job has already been done by the time we get to the clash of arms. On game size maps I most often drive them to a convenient position out of LOS and dismount the men to the roof of a nearby building.

[Drescher]

I tried to park this thing behind a ridge, with just the optics being exposed, like turret down. I found it worked rather well in this circumstance, i never knew before that the optic is simulated viewing really from above the vehicle but this was how it turned out.

There is a scenario out there but i forgot the name, you have a couple of humvees, a few trucks with Marines and you are up against a company of syrian paras( probably "just around the bend", but i need to check). It was there that i first employed the recon humvee using the above mentioned tactic, quite successfull i might add.

[Peter Panzer]

It would be great, and long overdue, if we could use the "Target/LOS" tool with the M707 in v.1.2.

UNCON spies have access to the command, so why doesn't the BLUFOR's equivalent? What about Cover Arcs? If you want your light recon assets to scan a specific sector you are out of luck in the current version of CMSF.

[sfhand]

+1 ^^^

A LOS tool from the recon equipment would certainly make them more effective to use...

[MikeyD]

Y'know, I've been thinking about that. We all (me included) say a LOS tool is necessary, but is it really? We can 'eyeball' distances in the game pretty well because 300m looks like 300m, and 1000m looks like 1000. How accurate do we have to be? In Iron mode at least we know a unit is within LOS because we can see him. All the LOS tool would do is give us the impresion that we're doing something when we aren't really.

You could argue range would be valuable for calling in artillery and airstrikes - Well, if you've got available artillery and air then you have the spotting LOS tool that goes with it!

Don't get me wrong, I want the LOS tool for the M707 too. I'm just not sure why I want it.

[sfhand]

The reason I want an LOS tool for the unit is pretty simple - it would enable me to keep it hull down while also giving me certainty that the unit has LOS to the area I want to keep an eye on.

[Dietrich]

My typical experience is that I carefully drive my M707s into hull-down positions in hopes of preemptively spotting enemy units but then they get taken out (usually by ATGMs) before they can spot much of anything.

An LOS tool would make it much easier to ensure that my M707 is hull-down rather than mostly hull-down. As it is, I move the camera to the area I want to recon, wind down to the lowest elevation, and zoom in on the M707 to see how much of it is visible above the crest. Kinda laborious.

Unfortunately, hull-down sometimes just isn't what it seems to be. In "Crossroad at El Derjine", either my Abrams are so hull-down that they can't see anything or they're positioned with the forward hull angled upward and above the crest, perfect for getting the driver WIA/KIA by an ATGM hit to the lower front glacis.

[Peter Panzer]

We all (me included) say a LOS tool is necessary, but is it really?

If the lack of the LOS tool for the M707 wasn't an oversight, it sure looks like one.

Again, the UNCON "spies" serve the same unarmed, recon role for the REDFOR and they have the ability to use it. Furthermore, the '707 can use the tool in the scenario editor, so why the hesitation to address this?

Yes, it would be really useful, here's a recap:

• Players shouldn't have to guess ranges when the purpose of the vehicle being modeled is supposed to help provide them.
  
• Scanning sectors via Cover Arcs is a tactical advantage. This asset depends on mobility to survive, I may want to orient the vehicle in a different direction than that being observed in the event a quick get away is required. If you want to observe to the north, but keep the hull oriented to the east or west you are out of luck.
  
• It would take the guesswork out of confirming that an unarmed vehicle is in a safe position (hull down). Players shouldn't have to use their recon assets as "sacrificial lambs" to accomplish their assigned role.
  
• You shouldn't have to guess if the vehicle has a clear LOS. It would be useful to confirm the vehicle can actually see the terrain it is assigned to observe. Does the game interpret that bush as being in the way? How about those distant trees? Who knows?

Point being, this vehicle would be much more useful and fun to use without all of the guessing on the part of the player. I know this may shock folks, but some of us enjoy the recon aspect of an engagement.

I understand the need to filter every request that comes down the pike, but honestly, folks are not asking for too much here. Help us Obi-Wan, your our only hope...

[snake_eye]

My typical experience is that I carefully drive my M707s into hull-down positions in hopes of preemptively spotting enemy units but then they get taken out (usually by ATGMs) before they can spot much of anything.

In "Crossroad at El Derjine", either my Abrams are so hull-down that they can't see anything or they're positioned with the forward hull angled upward and above the crest, perfect for getting the driver WIA/KIA by an ATGM hit to the lower front glacis.

Well, it is during the testing of that scenario, that I found out the value of the M707.

Before I was deceived, because it had no LOS. Then I discovered that the LOS worked with the mortars (and artillery) when they were choosen. the time on target was only within 2 minutes. That is very quick, usually it takes around 3 and or 4 minutes and even 7 minutes with the wrong spotter.

The difficulty that still remained was to bring the M707 observer's in the ring slightly above the crest and stay there the less time as possible , just enough time to call the mortars and get down behind.

[Dietrich]

So the M707 can call in artillery faster than an FO, eh? Interesting. I'll have to experiment with that. Sounds like the M707 could be a fast, maneuverable and lower-profile stand-in for the BFIST or FSV.

The next time I'm playing a scenario with M707s and artillery/air assets, I'll have to remember to use that de facto LOS tool.

[snake_eye]

So the M707 can call in artillery faster than an FO, eh? Interesting. I'll have to experiment with that. Sounds like the M707 could be a fast, maneuverable and lower-profile stand-in for the BFIST or FSV.

The next time I'm playing a scenario with M707s and artillery/air assets, I'll have to remember to use that de facto LOS tool.

Well, The BFIST or FSV have the advantage to be able to dismount , being then less vulnerable and still able to call mortars ansd or artillery. Sure it takes usually a bit longer as I have noticed. Is it always the same, That I have not fiound out for sure.

However, the M707 observer has to remain behind its optics and sensors to be able to call quick shelling on target.

The issue to protect at the best the Humvee still remains.

[Peter Panzer]

Is the application of the LOS tool for the M707 being considered for inclusion in v.1.2?