Replacements...

[Von_Altair]

I just bought the game and I am really enjoying about it! A Very good work.

There is one thing I can't stand though. When I am trying siege some city with an enemy

in it and it does not have any supply route back to its own front, it still gets 5-8 replacements... No matter if my units are all around there, it still gets replacements and causes situation where there must be "overkill" on it.

For example, I was attacking at Philippines with 3 infantry + HQ, 2 CA assisted with bombardements and 3 airplanes were also lightening a single infantry. I got it down to 1 str.. Next turn it was back to 5-8. Then rain begins and planes were out... AARGHH

It really doesn't make sense how this supply system works.

Imagine Stalingrad in -42, Germans are surrounded and losing a lot of troops all around, then Hitler pushes the button and PAM, 10 new divisions with full supply jumped in!

The game should find out if a unit is surrounded by enemy and in that case, only 1-2 MAX. reinforcements should be allowed. Even those replacements should be more expensive than in normal situation. It would always be a lot harder and more expensivr to supply surrounded units. Or there could be a new unit called "Transport Aircraft" which could bring those supplies and enemy could have a chance to prevent them with air superiority at area.

More realistic replacement system is really needed in this game.

[Stitch]

At least it's easier than assaulting a 2 tile island...

And those reinforcements do drop the experience level of the unit, making it a tad easier the next time.

But like you, I would have thought a "zone of control" around the surrounded unit would have made any such reinforcing very difficult at the least. Too much Panzer General for me I guess.

[jon_j_rambo]

The Germans had Lennigrad surrounded for how many months? They failed to take it

[Hubert Cater]

Von Altair,

If a resource is completely surrounded, i.e. all available land tiles around the resource are occupied by your enemy forces then the unit in the resource can only restrengthen back to a max of 5. Also as Stitch mentions each time units on a resource need to reinforce their experience level will drop so over time it should hopefully get easier to capture the sieged unit so long as sufficient damage is inflicted each turn.

I can understand the frustration but if we were to change the overall model it would likely become too easy to conquer these resources and in the end throw the timeline of the game quite a bit off. As it is now, and really for the most part throughout the SC series, if you throw enough manpower at capturing a resource it can be captured and the speed of these captures plays well within the actual historical timeframe in game terms. Granted, sometimes you need a little more than what was needed historically and sometimes a little bit less.

The reinforcement jumps can be looked at in many ways and these abstractions are sometimes needed simply for game play. Also as Rambo points out there are historical justifications for this as well when you consider examples such as Leningrad that was pretty much surrounded for 2 and a half years yet was never fully captured.

Hope this helps,

Hubert

[Blashy]

If you have a place surrouneded, it will go down quite fast. Never has been an issue for me.

[Von_Altair]

The Germans had Lennigrad surrounded for how many months? They failed to take it

Thats true, but saying "they failed to take it" is totally wrong statement. Truth was

that Germans didin't want to capture Leningrad at all, becose they didin't want to

feed all that massive population. They just bombed the city and formed defensive lines

around it. So this is a bit bad example for this. Leningrad defense didin't get a large

amount of supplies or men until the siege ended.

Other SC titles used the same replacement system and it was ok. IMHO in this game, it doesn't work, becose there are so many small areas, where it is not possible to work with them like it was in European Theatre. Unit density is also lower here.

Since there is partisan activity, popping them behind the lines, a cheap garrison unit is needed atleast in Japan's side.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Van Altair --- Garrison units would be nice to keep the civilians in line Nobody can afford to protect all their territory (in any of the SC games). Garrison units could be half the cost of an army, have very limited movement & attack power. Purpose to hold land.

Hey Van, you game some time? I'll play either side.

[Stitch]

@Van Altair --- Garrison units would be nice to keep the civilians in line Nobody can afford to protect all their territory (in any of the SC games).

More importantly, they would keep those 5 strength Chinese partisans from popping up all over conquered China. The Japanese corp limits are much too small near the end game to continually garrison the handful of those special cities.

[Von_Altair]

Since it is always easy to say that something does not work. I'll throw some ideas in,

to backup my arguments. These ideas should be easy to make and I belive that AI could handle with them too. They will make supply system/replacement more realistic and fits better in this game with quite different environment than in European Theatre.

Island supply/replacements:

- Island will get normal supply/replacements if its harbour is not blocked

- BB and CV can block harbour (choosed from unit options)

- Blocking unit will always show up to defender, and must be near harbour

- If harbour is blocked, then supply value in this island decreases -1 / turn

- Supply value never decrease below 1

- Once blocking unit is gone, an island gets supply again and original value returns.

This is very important, since supply was everything in Pacifig, if a warcamp in an island don't get much needed supplies, it can't defense itself too long. This will lead more and better naval engagements, which will also lead more realistic situations.

Land based supply/replacements:

- if a city lost supply route to its home territory, it starts to lose -1 supply level / turn

- Supply value never decrease below 1 with siege alone, but bombs could do it.

- as soon as supply route is back, value will be back too

Someone could ask, how to say which is land and which is an island. That will be out of my business

How this affect to units:

- Units can't regenerate higher than nearest supply source is (naval has different rules ofc). If a unit is brand fresh unit with 10 supply it will go down with normal style, but won't come back without proper source.

- Unit can have max. X amount of replacements / turn, where X is its supply level. So if a unit is without supply, it won't get any. Lets say a unit has supply 2, it means it can have max. 2 replacements / turn not 5 or 8 like it does now. So this basically changes only low supply effects where everything works like it is now with 5 -8 supply levels. Max. replacement caps are just fine like they are, but the speed with low supply levels is not.

So a unit with low supply level can still get the same total replacements like they do now, but they just needs more turns for it. Making things realistic and allowing "normal" casualty effects.

Old system where units are penalized down to 5 if totally surrounded by enemy, does not work in this game becose of many islands with low amount of landtitles / unit density. The same things makes small islands too hard to conquer and makes it unrealistic and will also drain fun part of the war. This is quite easy way to make things more realistic and fun too.

2 Other things that are needed:

- Garrison units, about half cost of infantry and equal skills to partisans (mentioned above already)

- Engineers should have ability to build lvl 10 harbour with proper cost. Both sides needs better harbour, where to repair/replace casualties in distance provinces too. This does not need to be cheap tho.

Sorry about my bad english, it is not my main language, but I am working on it

[Von_Altair]

Idea part II

Those things could be optional for players. So they could choose them if they want it. Otherwise play with "old" rules.

Such ruleset would also contain new tech called:

Advanced supply (1-3) tech research

- For example with 1 point researched, all faction cities and units would have +1 supply level. (Basically USA had better supply system)

- This would be good way to fuel AI:s power too.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Von Altair --- I must say, very well shared. Good thoughts about gaming model for supply. Far as your English, it's better than mine My English sucks, I always got C's & D's in school. On the otherhand, I can slice thru the King James Bible like butter.

@Hubert --- Dude, how about making a U.S. Civil War game next? You'll need supply rules for Vicksburg

[Bill101]

If you have a place surrouneded, it will go down quite fast. Never has been an issue for me.

Especially if you back up your attack with some bombing raids, as the bombers will reduce your target's supply quite drastically.

Another thing to bear in mind, and it's the main reason why Blashy is correct in saying that surrounded units usually fall very quickly, is that they won't be benefiting from a HQ, and HQs are vital to success in this game. In this case not only for supply purposes, but also for leadership which can give a massive boost to a unit's combat potential.

[Blashy]

You need 4-5 units to keep partisans away once China has surrendered.

Have a look at the scripts if you find what locations.

Although I am in favor of simplifying the process with this idea:

A) ALL capitals need a unit on it or it could have a physical partisans popup.

Any other city would just get damage from partisan activity.

[Hubert Cater]

Thats true, but saying "they failed to take it" is totally wrong statement. Truth was

that Germans didin't want to capture Leningrad at all, becose they didin't want to

feed all that massive population. They just bombed the city and formed defensive lines

around it. So this is a bit bad example for this. Leningrad defense didin't get a large

amount of supplies or men until the siege ended.

Other SC titles used the same replacement system and it was ok. IMHO in this game, it doesn't work, becose there are so many small areas, where it is not possible to work with them like it was in European Theatre. Unit density is also lower here.

Since there is partisan activity, popping them behind the lines, a cheap garrison unit is needed atleast in Japan's side.

Von Altair,

Thanks for the feedback and especially your well thought out suggestions as there is a lot there for consideration

For Leningrad, and really not to split hairs, much of what you suggest is still debatable as it could be argued the German High Command (especially Hitler) would not have minded if Leningrad had quickly surrendered as originally hoped. Additionally the Germans did have a second offensive planned to take the city in 1942 but were thwarted by Soviet Sinyavin relief offensive. As for resupply to the city they did receive limited supplies not only in the summer via barges along coast of Lake Ladoga but even more so in the Winter once the lake froze over as Leningrad was never completely surrounded if you take the lake on the east side of Leningrad into account.

Granted once the Germans realized it was not going to be easy to capture the city they did lay siege in the hope to "starve" out a victory, but in fairness to the Soviet defenders of the city, they never did surrender.

For cheap Garrison units, it is a good suggestion and often suggested in the past but I think the main fear is that it would throw off game balance too much since as it is now it requires (especially for the Japanese player) you to maintain a balance of forces throughout the critical areas of the Asian mainland etc., i.e. otherwise a Japanese player could throw an overwhelming amount of force towards Chungking with the current units available which would not necessarily be historical either.

Of course if we were to introduce Garrison units the other option would be to make less units available to Japan to compensate but I think the end result would be pretty much the same.

Hubert

[Syagrius]

Garrisons are handy in CEAW, they dont cost much manpower and IC. However as Hubert said, if they unbalance the game maybe they are not worth it.