AT4 and Javelin against T-72/T-90

[Chad Harrison]

Hi all

Much like some others here, I have fired up CM:SF again after 1.10. I didn't have any problems with the original offering, but after playing it for a couple of weeks I just moved on to other things (aka work, kids and school) while waiting for the finer points to be ironed out. Having been around since the CM:BO demo, I can now finally say that I enjoying CM:SF just as much as I did the original games. Kudos to the BF team.

Anyways, one of the things I miss about the WWII setting is how simple it was to figure out if you had a chance of taking down a tank with a particular weapon. Obviously a lot of factors went into it, but you could sit back and know that your M4A3 Sherman could go toe to toe with a Mk IV Panzer and stand a good chance.

I am having a hard time with CM:SF in this regard though. I have no idea what the penetration capabilities are of the American AT4 and Javelin and what the defensive capabilities of the modern Russian tanks. In game, all we get is the table for the vehicles showing a watered down table of how good each vehicle is at defending against four different types of attacks from four different angles. I know that its pretty much a bunch of hammers against egg shells, but that doesnt relate well to game terms.

When I played CM:SF a year and a half ago, I remember having a very hard time taking down T-72M1V TURMS-T's with Javelins. I would achieve solid hits to the top which from my limited knowledge of the real world design and function of the Javelin, should have not only destroyed the tank, but easily done so. I remember in particular, the Al Hawl battle (non-campaign, vanilla from the disk) where I hit the T-72's multiple times with Javelins and they were not destroyed. Not only were they not destroyed, but they continued to fight as though nothing had happened (no shock, ect).

So, my questions are:

1. How well should the AT4 and Javelin preform against modern (T-72 and later) Russian armor? Front, sides, rear and top?

2. Should the Javelin be able to defeat modern armor with a top hit?

3. Isn't the entire point of the Javelin design and usefulness to always have a top hit?

While I have been playing again for the last couple of weeks and am looking to get Marines now, I am basing this off of my experiences playing with the original version of the game. Has any changes been made to this since then?

Thanks in advance.

Chad

[panzermartin]

If the syrians had Javelins they would call them "The Hand of Allah". Its that good..But yeah I agree about the blurry capabilitites of the hardware. All I can say is play and test more. I've run a few tests myself to see what works and what not with some custom scenarios I call "firing range". Last night I was testing the barret .50 sniper rifle. It was cool to see penetrating a BRDM damaging the radio and forcing it to retreat. Or crippling a BMP-3s optics/targeting system. There is not a chance I can figure this stuff out in a raging real time battle.

[Flanker15]

That Javlin hitting a T-72 and not destroying it was a topic of thread a while ago, we hadn't decided if it was a bug or if the AA mg was taking the impact. You'll have to check with BFC if they've changed it or not. Anyways the Javlin will kill any tank in the world that it hits (on top of the turret). The AT4 only has 400mm of RHA penertration (less than the regular RPG7 warhead) so against tank frontal armor or ERA it will be useless but might get some luck hitting the sides and rear, against IFVs it will work fine.

[salwon]

The Javelin will kill it. Doesn't even really matter what "it" is, toss a javelin at it and it will cease existing.

But yeah, I know what you mean.

[Chad Harrison]

All I can say is play and test more. I've run a few tests myself to see what works and what not with some custom scenarios I call "firing range".

I took your advice to heart and did just that. I setup a firing range scenario and put out a bunch of tanks and let the Javelins fly.

Whatever the bug was, it appears to have been fixed. Every time I got a hit on a T-72M1V TURMS-T it was toast. Again, a year ago, with version 1.0, this was not the case. The above mentioned tank in that scenario would take 5 or 6 Javelins and keep shooting. I think it was at that point that I stopped playing to wait for it to be fixed

The Javelin will kill it. Doesn't even really matter what "it" is, toss a javelin at it and it will cease existing.

That was my impression. That's why I was confused when it wasn't the case in game. Again, glad to see it fixed.

Thanks again for the replies.

[MikeyD]

I recall reading of a Hungarian test of AT4 (Carl Gustav) and standard 105mm APFSDS against a T72B1. Things did not go at all well according to the accompanying photos - T72's tougher than it looks. That's why everybody's now fielding expensive top-attack AT weapons and 120mm tank guns. I've seen instances in the game where desperate Marines even fired their LAWs at oncoming armor, wasn't exactly the most effective defense I've ever seen

Upgraded T72 roof armor has been tweaked so often in the patches that I can't recall how well it stands up anymore. Game-wise which would you prefer, people complaining that Javelin is utterly invincible or people complaining that their upgraded T72/T90 is utterly unstoppable?

[dan/california]

It is not really all that complicated n terms of match ups. The Javelin, TOW, and Abrams main gun will kill anything on the field, usually in one shot.

For the Syrians the T-90, ATGM-14 Kornet, and the RPG-29 are almost as effective.

Virtually every missile and cannon round in the game can kill virtually every infantry fighting vehicle. ERA Bradleys and BMP-3s are sturdier, but not by much.

The only place it gets iffy is lighter antitank weapons vs older Syrian tanks. If in doubt, hold out for a flank shot.

The Stryker mounted 105mm is also a little iffy against MBTs, unfortunately for the Stryker anything its gun is iffy against will certainly kill it if lands a return shot, so be very careful.

And remember the Abrams' armor is MUCH thinner on the sides and rear.

[John Kettler]

dan/california,

The Stryker mounted M68A1 ought to be iffy. That's precisely why we went to the Rheinmetall smoothbore 120 after U.S. firing tests on export model T-72s found we couldn't penetrate from the front at useful range, even with improved ammo. The 120mm & associated "Silver Bullet" of murderous GW I fame were the direct result of the "get well" program the U.S. instituted after discovering, in the mid 1980s, a chasm between Russian ability to penetrate us (excellent) and our ability to penetrate them (pretty much nothing usable frontally save Hellfire and Maverick).

Regards,

John Kettler