Shtora counter-countermeasures

[c3k]

Let's see if I have this right: the Shtora system detects laser beams (.6-1.65 micron wavelengths). When that happens, severa reactions occur:

1. It slews the turret to point in the direction of the detected beam.

Is this automatic? I.e., can the crew elect not to have this occur? If so, is it on a case by case basis, or is it done by simply shutting down that mode?

2. With the turret pointing that way, it instantly fires off a smoke screen.

How many such screens can be fired? Is it a one-off capability? Or two or three? Obviously the tank will be blinded as well. What does the crew do? Stay? Reverse? Pull the trigger and hope to suppress the enemy?

3. The active spoof-light, or whatever the IR guidance jammer is called, also goes to work.

How will that system work if it's inside an opaque smoke screen? If there is a discriminant between firing or not firing the smoke screen, what is it? How effective is the active jammer?

That brings me to my next thought: if I'm sitting behind a laser designator and several Shtora equipped tanks are coming at me, I'll lase them all. I'll laugh a bit as they puff out their clouds of smoke. As the smoke disperses, I'll lase 'em again. Finally, when they're tired of false alarms and out of smoke, I'll launch. (Okay, if I could die, I may do it differently, but in my immortal form in CMx2, I'll lase away.)

How will adaptive tactics by laser equipped troops deal with Shtora? More importantly, how will the game show this? Heck, I'd issue ALL my troops a laser pointer in the right wavelength, merely deleting the digital encoding for a target designator.

If I lase a tank and it billows smoke, I'll move to the next one. Will that be simulated?

Thanks,

Ken

[Flanker15]

The Shtora is the designation of just the IR jammer and isn't present on the T-90 in the module. The laser detectors are present and don't automatically slew the turret, the commander has to press a button for it to do that (don't want the turret to spin round in an inappropriate moment). The smoke screen is manual as well, I'm not sure if it's tied into the laser detector system or just the normal smoke triggers.

The process is: an enemy tank lases you with its LRF. A warning goes off, the commander presses the button the turret spins to face the threat. You are then in a much better position to either pop smoke and manurer or fire at the target and your front turret armour is now facing the threat. Of coures the enemy tank has probably already fired its cannon at you but your front turret armour is much preferable to anything else and you know where the enemy is now.

Edit: I see that Shtora has been used as the designation for the whole suite but I've seen it used to designate the IR jammer particularly though.

[Roter Stern]

Here's a quick blurb from Moon:

Basically, when a T-90 "detects" that it's being "lased" (targetted with a laser range finder), it stops, fires smoke and "goes defensive". As usual with CM, it's not black-white: there is a lot of fuzzy logic built in. The actual outcome depends on the movement type, enemy unit and simple randomness.

As far as the actual system, it's supposed to be comprised of two main components - the IR Jammer and an anti-Laser smoke screen.

The IR Jammer is aimed at defeating missiles with an IR Homing system - by either effectively blinding the missile targeting or presenting a much larger target than just the hotspot of the engine. Supposed to work on TOW, HOT, MILAN, and Dragon -type ATGMs.

What is not clear is how the system supposed to defect incoming missiles, since IR targeting doesn't actually emit anything at the target, most don't even use a range-finder. Perhaps the IR Jammer is constantly transmitting, regardless of incoming threats? There is also no indication that the IR Jammer is even modeled in the Marine module.

Where as the Smoke Screen is designed to dissipate and partially reflect the Laser emissions, making it much harder for ATGMs with an active and semi-active laser guidance to find it's target. That said, not a lot of ATGMs use a laser homing system - most are areal-delivered such as Hellfire, Maverick, and the Copperhead would be the intended targets.

[c3k]

Yeah, my thoughts are that the tank firing its smokescreen will be blinded. When it backs out of the smokescreen, if there's no immediate cover, it's a sitting duck.

I'd guess the laser detector is not so much meant to defeat laser guided weapons as it is meant to alert the crew that they are being ranged by an enemy system. Some examples using laser rangefinders would be Apaches and M1's. It's been sooo long since I've targeted anything with a TOW that I have forgotten if there's a laser rangefinder built into the sight system.

Regards,

Ken

[Battlefront.com]

The T-90SA in the Marines Module has the export version of Shtora system, not he full one which only the Russians themselves have access to. This is the IR smoke deployment portion, not the "jammer" aspect. I think the fighting in Georgia will only reinforce Russia's motivation for not putting systems like this into the hands of potential adversaries.

BTW, I once had a nice talk with a Colonel in charge of doctrine/training end of several US ATGM systems (Javelin, TOW ITAS, and the now cancelled LOSAT). I asked him about Shtora and a similar system found on Chinese tanks ("dazzler") and how much they were concerned about them. His answer amounted to "yes, I am very aware of these systems. No, we are not concerned about them, however that's all I can say about it". The jammers and dazzler systems can be overcome, quite easily I think, if the software and hardware designs take their capabilities into account. The US has already proven this several times in recent years, especially regarding ERA.

Defenses are always harder to improve compared to offensive ones. Especially today when the overkill gap between defense and offense is so huge.

Steve

[Roter Stern]

Good point about the export version... keep forgetting we don't actually have Russians as the Red Force, despite what all of my currently installed mods might suggest

So how exactly does it all work in the game? Do the T-90s automatically pop smoke as soon as someone uses a range finder on them? Or is it only triggered by an Active Laser targeting? Are they still able to do it if the 'lasing' enemy unit was not previously known or visible to the tank crew?

That said, I don't think there's a lot of things on the Blue side that actually use a SAL guidance ... correct me if I'm wrong, but we're only looking at Hellfires from the AH64s and Mavericks from the A10s, that's about it.

[slug88]

Well, as Ken said, missiles are only half the threat, MBTs also lase their target to determine range.

[theFightingSeabee]

Laser weapons aren't that far away. They can already cut through armor. All they need to do is come up with better energy sources and they'll be arming all types of vehicles and aircraft. Then having a laser detector will be having a sabot penetration detector.

[Roter Stern]

Well, as Ken said, missiles are only half the threat, MBTs also lase their target to determine range.

True, however I seriously doubt there's enough time to deploy a smoke screen from the time that Laser Ranger finder ping goes out and the time the trigger is pressed... and certainly not enough time to have any meaningful negative effect on the enemy's targeting performance.

Laser weapons aren't that far away. They can already cut through armor.

Lasers capable of cutting armor - not far away at all...

Portable fusion reactors - not so much...

[slug88]

Well, I think we need an expert opinion to conclusively answer that one. If the time delay between lasing and "on the way" is on the order of a second or two, then I think that it would provide enough to time rotate the turret and/or deploy some smoke given a favorable situation. Also, remember that at long range, there is a noticeable flight time for the round as well.

[Roter Stern]

Well, I think we need an expert opinion to conclusively answer that one. If the time delay between lasing and "on the way" is on the order of a second or two, then I think that it would provide enough to time rotate the turret and/or deploy some smoke given a favorable situation. Also, remember that at long range, there is a noticeable flight time for the round as well.

Indeed. Perhaps some of the tankers can comment on this?

However keep in mind that the conventional munition flight time has nothing to do with the effectiveness of this system - since if the gunner was able to acquire the target and make the shot, the smoke screen will not have any effect on the flight of the projectile. At the very best if the hit if not lethal, you might prevent an effective re-engagement and get a rough idea about the enemy's location.

Also considering how (potentially) effective this system is against the MCLOS and SACLOS type ATGMs, I honestly doubt that the crews could react to every single rangefinder ping and save it for a confirmed ATGM lock/launch.

[Battlefront.com]

The flight time is the big factor as, I think, since it is the most reliable delay between targeting and actual impact. Other delays come from the gunner making decisions based on the lazed info, waiting for permission to fire, etc. In other words, just because a tank is lazed doesn't mean that some sort of munition is immediately following. It should be assumed that is the case, but it doesn't necessarily work like that in real life. In any case, if a tank is lazed that means someone knows where it is and has LOS/LOF at that particular moment. Deploying smoke on the assumption that something bad is about to happen is the right thing to do.

In the game what happens is you're happily driving your T-90SAs around and then all of a sudden they pop smoke and do evasive maneuvers behind it. You think "gee, what's all the fuss about" because you might very well not see whatever lazed your tanks. Remember, the whole purpose of Shtora is to respond to a threat before the Humans inside are aware there is a threat at all.

How effective is Shtora in the game? As you might imagine, it depends heavily on circumstances. In a large tank battle against Elvis I found that it very frequently saved my ass a couple of times. HOWEVER, the system doesn't do squat for you if you're on the move in a hurry. It can also have some very negative side effects.

During the battle with Elvis, which was at night, I had 2/3rds of my tanks on overwatch and sent another 1/3rd (platoon) to flank him. He started shooting at my overwatch, which popped smoke and withdrew behind the clouds. The advancing tanks, unfortunately, didn't (they were moving FAST). So while their overwatch protection was largely blinded by their own anti-IR smoke, my advancing tanks were cut to pieces. I still managed to get some kills in from both the maneuver and some overwatch elements, however Shtora may have made things worse (or better, how can one say for sure?).

Steve

[Roter Stern]

Hmm interesting... I'm also glad to hear that the system in-game is able to be deployed based on a trigger (lazing) from an enemy units the player (and his units) might not be explicitly aware of.

Any comments on how effective is it against ATGMs? I'd imagine not at all against the Javelin, however a TOW and most of Red's own ATGMs it should stop dead, should it not?

[Lampshade111]

A good friend of mine works at a company that produces laser warning system for the U.S. military. Besides setting off a warning the system shows what direction the laser is coming from. He has never said what vehicles use this system but he says they are built to work on helicopters, tanks, and all sorts of things. I would imagine the latest M1A2 SEP include these and possibly the M1A1HC SA.

There are smoke screens that can block both lasers and thermal imagers and I believe the T-90A uses such smoke grenades. To my knowledge the U.S. Army current does not use these, part of the reason being that it works both ways, meaning the tank can't see either. I once read the British use laser blocking smoke however. The countermeasures setup on the Future Combat Systems manned vehicles may include laser and thermal blocking smoke grenades as well as the planned soft and hard kill active protection systems.

In my opinion systems like Shorta are great for dealing with older missiles yet against newer designs, especially top attack missiles like the Javelin they won't do much good. I am uncertain if they still do but the USMC used to use the Missile Countermeasure Device (either the Sanders VLQ-8A or Loral VLQ-6) on their M1A1 Abrams. The Army also tested these systems during and after the first Gulf War.

Battlefront Steve you mentioned LOSAT was cancelled but actually the program lives on to an extent in form of the C-KEM.

[John Kettler]

This problem is a bit more complicated than some of you seem to think. For example, do you happen to know the types of lasers installed for fire control on the Abrams and the Bradley and their associated emission frequencies? If you don't, how can you pontificate on "tickling the Shtora" when you're not even sure Shtora can "feel" the "feather" you propose? While it's certainly true that ruby and NdYAG rangefinding lasers are in band to the Shtora's laser detection system, is that what late model Abrams and Bradleys have these days? I doubt it. Even in my Hughes days we were looking at CO2 lasers. Why? Because they could see right through ordinary visual smokes and dust, both of which could and did wreak havoc on the lower frequency earlier lasers. That's why TOW II has that waffle iron affair on its rear. It's a thermal IR (8-12 micron) emitter, which is readily visible to our FLIR gear. A CO2 laser is smack in the middle of the thermal IR band, too, at, I believe, 10.6 microns, So, I ask you, what sense does it make to spend millions to see at long range and through battlefield obscurants if you don't equip yourself to actually engage effectively as a result? It doesn't, as shown here.

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product.php?prodID=429

The Eye-Safe Laser Rangefinder is quite clearly, despite the mangled text, a carbon dioxide = CO2 laser.

There are, though, some 1500 of this Erbium laser rangefinder in service, and they are in band to the Shtora at 1.54 microns.

Jury's still out on Bradley ODS with IBAS. DRS can't spell "technical" in its PDF brochure,

but does say it has an Eye-Safe Laser Rangefinder. DRS fails to list the type and spectral region, though.

http://www.drs.com/Products/IBAS.aspx?cat=RSTA&subcat=Sub_Cat_3

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

John,

Thanks. These are the types of technical info (speculation?) I was hoping for.

Shtora literature (in the open, so subject to debate as to its veracity) states the .6-1.6 micron wavelength.

As I stated, I'd immediately every soldier in my command with a laser pointer in that wavelength. Standard ops on spotting a tank would be to lase it. Hell, I'd even check the wavelenght of commercial laser levelers. The type that sits on a tripod and spins. I'd stick dozens of 'em all over the AOP of every small unit, if the wavelength is correct. (I have no idea.)

So, if I'm in my M1, and I lase a T90 with Shtora, it pops smoke, but I still fire - I could still hit the T90 if it has NOT changed its velocity. If it were moving forward at 10m/s, my ballistics computer would solve for that. So, safe behind its smoke, I still nail it. The T90 would have to adjust its expected position by a value greater than its size and the accuracy of my weapon.

Example: T90 is 5 meters long. My weapon is accurate at that range and speed to 1/2 meter. (All numbers made up.) If I were to hit the T90 dead center, that gives me 2 1/2 meters left and right leeway. After accuracy errors, I've still got 2 meters each way. To give the T90 a chance, it's new position AFTER smoke deployment but BEFORE weapon impact HAS to be greater than that distance, 2 meters. Preferably greater than 2 1/2 meters, better yet, 5 meters.

Essentially, any tank to be protected from non-terminal guided rounds needs to be able to change its position by its own dimension. Given the short flight times (5,000 fps for the Abrams) that seems hard. Can it be done?

If it can be done, how hard of a manuever must it be? Does it HAVE to be absolutely immediate: MAX braking, FULL rate turret slew, FULL rpm, SLAM into reverse, DON'T stop for 2 seconds? Is a crew capable of performing the action? If so, WOULD they do it for every Shtora warning, every time, all the way? Or, would they get bored of doing drills? If it's automatic, how many times would a tank crewman have his teeth broken or get a bloody nose when it engages before he disconnects it?

Theory is fine. That's what labs are there to show. But field use is TOTALLY different.

Regards,

Ken

[Roter Stern]

...exactly why I'm trying to maintain that Shtora type systems are not even designed to defeat conventional ballistic rounds, especially with-in their optimal firing range.

[John Kettler]

c3k,

Hughes built the CITV for the M1A2, and my dad worked on the DTV. Also, I worked quite a bit on TOW in its various incarnations. Part of my beat, if you will, was Soviet tank defensive measures and techniques. Trust me when I tell you they thought long and hard about tank survivability in the face of western weaponry, which is why they'd long since fielded obscurants capable of defeating not just visual observation but thermal, too. Squid ink for tanks! Meanwhile, we were rocking red phosphorus. Yawn. Good only until someone with FLIR shows up.

Turning now to your scenario, a lot depends on the engagement geometry, ground configuration and available cover. If the T-90's direct front, moving right at you and at even 2000 meters out, assuming you laid the sight on the turret ring before lasing and had a Sabot round up the spout, you'd probably still hit. Shtora's principal purpose isn't to help the T-90 survive a KE engagement but a CE one, an inbound ATGM, whether ground launched or from a "flying tank," so the T-90's unlikely to advance beyond the fan shaped screened area, which is substantial, once the obscurants are deployed. Instead, it'll be looking for the nearest cover while trying to put the thickest armor toward the direction (likely quadrant) whence came that laser pulse. The system may well be programmed to notice certain characteristics of military laser rangefinders, characteristics not necessarily found in laser pointers, and respond only to those. Russia is, after all, maskirovka central! Farther than that, and I suspect elevation would begin to be a factor. Microrelief could well hide the low slung T-90 clear up to the top of the tracks, and it's fast and agile as all get out. Am presuming you've seen some of the Poligon footage? Your TOF from 2 km is ~ 2 seconds and goes up as engagement range increases.

Against more angularly approaching targets or crossing targets, matters get more complicated in a hurry, for now lead must be factored in, and you can bet the TC in your planned victim's going to be acutely aware of the ground and available cover. BTW, standard Russian tank doctrine was and remains to use every fold in the ground and to flow like water. Properly speaking, in the attack, the fire support should also be able to blanket the defender's likely location with the same FLIR blinding agents. Indeed, in my Hughes days, the nightmare scenario was of leading waves of T-55s with ERA and Drozd, to nullify our planned long range TOW shots and identify their firing positions (not many long range LOS to be had in the Fulda Gap; Russians are very good at terrain analysis), attacking behind broadband obscurant screens laid by fire support, tacair or helos, after which came the tank hordes of T-64s and T-72s. Upgrade the models as time marched on. But back then, there was only a handful of vanilla 105mm gunned M1s, with the rest of the force M60s.

What you probably won't see reflected in CMSF is the immense amount of visual and thermal clutter which would be preesnt in the event of large scale combat. If you go back to some of the Desert Storm accounts, though, you can read how there were so many battlefield fires burning, not to mention oil wells and installations, that even thermals were badly degraded.

Regards,

John Kettler

[FAI]

What you probably won't see reflected in CMSF is the immense amount of visual and thermal clutter which would be preesnt in the event of large scale combat. If you go back to some of the Desert Storm accounts, though, you can read how there were so many battlefield fires burning, not to mention oil wells and installations, that even thermals were badly degraded.

Regards,

John Kettler

So there's supposed to be arty delivered obscurant

[John Kettler]

c3k,

Left out a key comment. Should've also discussed the laser designators and missile guidance beams, which can be modulated, coded, or both.

FAI,

If it can be put into smoke launchers on tanks, then there's absolutely no reason it couldn't be deployed in lots of other ways. In my Hughes days, which ran through late 1984, the last thing we wanted was a close range fight against a force armed with guns which shot flat to ~1500 meters. Thus, the object of the game was to sting and retire, never letting the foe close where numbers would tell and in a hurry. What happens, though, if your good TOW sites are plastered with artillery fire, not to mention the aforementioned squid ink is hiding the horde from long range fire, resulting in a deadly series of point blank engagements? Numbers do create a quality all their own! Our analyses found the resulting target servicing problem was simply impossible with the forces we had.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Lampshade111]

John Kettler, I believe Russian knowledge regarding our FLIR systems during the 1980s was somewhat limited. I also believe that thermal blocking smoke screens were introduced rather late during the Cold War. Indeed Russian artillery would have made life hell for everybody, but most certainly ATGM gunners and infantry. Yet hordes of Russian guns were always a major threat and a shift to more mobile TOW launchers helped to deal with this to an extent. As far as T-55s with Drodz leading an attack, ideally the tanks could be directed to hit these while the TOW gunners waited for the next line of armor. Drodz was not horribly reliable anyway.