Aragorn2002 Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 In a review of 'Marshal Zhukov at the Oder: The Decisive Battle for Berlin' by Tony Le Tissier someone mentions 'the new (1945) German doctrine on defensive operations that would cost the Red Army dearly in men and tanks'. Was there actually such a new doctrine, and if so what was it exactly? And what was the Russian answer to it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 I think he is referring to the 'Zonal Defence' which was trialled in East Prussia and described post war by Rauss. It is a deep (40km) zone of Company sized plus strongpoints along any axes of advance with ambush points in between. Lots of engineering works as well. Russian solution was just to grind through it all, expensive and slow but effective. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted September 14, 2008 Author Share Posted September 14, 2008 Thank you, DAF. Can't seem to find it in 'Panzers on the eastern front', but it makes sense, considering the limited resources of the Germans by that time. I will buy Le Tissiers book as soon as the paperback version is available. Until that time I'm hoping for more details by you, or anyone else. Enough experts here, one would say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 Aragorn2002, I agree with Der Alte Fritz. Recently, I was reading a doc (wish I could remember where; might've been CARL) on the different German defensive schemes during the War in the East, and that one was prominently mentioned in the late war discussion. If I find it again, I'll let you know. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted September 14, 2008 Author Share Posted September 14, 2008 Please do that, John, thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannon DC Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Too big for effective CMBB scenarios... maybe with CMC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Aragorn2002, Found it, I think. DA Pamphlet 20-233 Historical Study: German Defensive Tactics Against Russian Breakthroughs. See p. 42 et seq. http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/docrepository/dapam20_233.pdf. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 Excellent, John, thank you very much. I'm gonna read it right away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Hi John The document I was referring to was "Military Improvisations during the Russian Campaign" http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/milimprov/ch02.htm#IV However Rauss makes the point that this tactics was only used at Lvov and East Prussia in Jan 1945. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 I note that Raus has to be used with caution as a source. He is a known teller of "fish stories" and recycler of wartime propaganda, who pretended at times in the postwar interviews that he had personal knowledge of things he actually was relaying from other officers or Signal. Some of what he says is true, of course. You just can't assume anything is true if he is the only one saying it. Not that this sort of doctrinal thing is his favorite subject to exaggerate about, it isn't. Just saying, use anything from Raus with caution. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted September 16, 2008 Author Share Posted September 16, 2008 DAF and John, both very interesting studies. Thank you. The most important aspect of the 'new' defensive doctrine seems to have been the last-minute withdrawl from the first line of resistance in order to avoid the artillery barrage, which must have sound a lot easier than it must have been in practice. Especially given the impressive infiltration skills of the Russians and their skills in hiding their offensive preparations. And yes, these studies have to be used with caution, since Raus obviously wanted to impress the people who asked him to make the studies. Still, fascinating stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 Wasn't the "last minute withdrawl" specifically something from Seelowe Heights & the commander there was lauded for it? Doesn't sound like a particularly widespread doctrine on the surface of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 That part of the doctrine can only have been of use when the front was more or less stabile, after things went mobile again it was pretty worthless, I guess. If I recall correctly the 'last minute withdrawl' was used a long time before 1945, even in Normandy and sooner. And as Raus stated, for such a tactic you need disciplined and experienced units, which weren't around much anymore in 1945. The result of such a withdrawl could easily have become a chaotic rout. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Aragorn2002, Glad to help! Earlier German static defense doctrine in Standing Fast (pics and maps via hyperlink) http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/wray/wray.asp German tactical doctrine 1942, with defense in context http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german-tactical-doctrine/index.html German battalion defensive area (North Africa) http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/defense-areas-north-africa.html German hedgehog defense in the East http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/trench-warfare-eastern-front.html The German Defense of Berlin (Generalobertst Halder was impressed by the report!) http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/germandefberl.htm These may keep you out of mischief! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I think that what you need to bear in mind is that German defensive doctrine did not change that much during the course of the war. It arose from the Battle of the Somme in 1916 in which the German defenders lost almost as many men as the attackers pro rata. This led to a switch away from a linear defence to what was termed 'elastic defence' which was based on strongpoints within the trench system which covered the ground between them by artillery and MG fire. Loss of ground was accepted so long as the attack ground to a halt and was then counter attacked immediately. This doctrine was used during the entire Second World War with local changes to adapt it to local conditions. So individual strongpoints were abandoned in 1943 as being too vulnerable to Soviet artillery but they remained within the linear trench system. No change in doctrine although the defences look very different. My current project is a series of scenarios which will show the 'doctrine' type defence and then the various adaptations to it. The first one of these is posted at TPG as German Defence 1941. So any information that you can dig up on this area would be very useful in the future. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Der Alte Fritz, Recommend, then, that you get cracking straight away on Standing Fast, for it precisely covers your area of interest. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Hi John I have read "Standing Fast" several times. But I am still unable to get firm data on Winter 1942 defences around the Stalingrad relief force. This was known as the battles on the River Chir. An Infantry Division held the river line and the 11th Panzer Division operated behind them dealing with any armour penetrations like the one at State Farm 79 on 5th December. But data on the positions of the 336th ID is very scarce. Any ideas? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Der Alte Fritz, Didn't know you'd read "Standing Fast." Will see what I can come up with/what finds me, now that I know what you seek. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Der Alte Fritz, Info on 11 PD at Chir http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1253 Balck bio http://www.11thpanzer.com/dsp_balck.htm A lot of OOB data and combat loss data, including much Russian, for Chir area and vic. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53143&start=135 You may now need new underwear! Red Star State Farm! Maps from both sides, a German general's account (von Knobelsdorff) of the battle, Russian comments, etc. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=116000&start=105&st=0&sk=t&sd=a Russian tank losses, maps, woes with flamethrower tanks and frozen mine plows http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53143&start=120 Very detailed American analysis of Chir River battles by Russel Stolfi. Maps, pics, OOB, the works! http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=116000&st=0&sk=t&sd=a Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Dear John Well done! Loads of stuff here, I make it about 400 pages. It will take me a while to sift all of this. I did not someone saying that the 336th only held a 10km front and not 30km front as in the Panzer Battles Book. I will have to look into this. Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 Wonderful information indeed. It will take me weeks to plough through it, but what amazing information can be found if you know where to look! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Hi john Oh dear. The reason I was interested in this battle was that is was typical of a German defence with an extended line, von M said the division held a 30km front line. According to your sources it was 10km. Since a Bn holds a front of 2km, a division at standard spacing holds 8km, so just adding the reserve regt into the front line makes it 10km. So quite normal. How about one of those German corset divisions that had to fight their way out after the collapse of the Allied armies on either flank of the 6th Armee. Did they end up holding extended lines and if so how did they do it? Any ideas? cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 Aragorn2002 and Der Alte Fritz, You're welcome! 400 pages, eh? A mere piffle! Actually, I didn't keep track of the count. Too focused on the hunt! Der Alte Fritz, Maybe it did. I thought some of the material, the stuff with the Romanians specifically mentioned, talked about just such matters. If not, get me a divisional number or something. Will see what I can do. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Daviswilson Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 hi this is Davis.....hello to all the members....... Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin is really an exciting game... I got the game.....but it is really time taking.... I'm addicted to the game so much that even i'm not able to know how much time i'm spending with the game.... nice to meet you all here... ------------------------------------ Davis. Job Opportunities 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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