New German Defence Doctrine in 1945?

[Aragorn2002]

In a review of 'Marshal Zhukov at the Oder: The Decisive Battle for Berlin' by Tony Le Tissier someone mentions 'the new (1945) German doctrine on defensive operations that would cost the Red Army dearly in men and tanks'. Was there actually such a new doctrine, and if so what was it exactly? And what was the Russian answer to it?

[Der Alte Fritz]

I think he is referring to the 'Zonal Defence' which was trialled in East Prussia and described post war by Rauss. It is a deep (40km) zone of Company sized plus strongpoints along any axes of advance with ambush points in between. Lots of engineering works as well.

Russian solution was just to grind through it all, expensive and slow but effective.

[Aragorn2002]

Thank you, DAF. Can't seem to find it in 'Panzers on the eastern front', but it makes sense, considering the limited resources of the Germans by that time. I will buy Le Tissiers book as soon as the paperback version is available. Until that time I'm hoping for more details by you, or anyone else. Enough experts here, one would say.

[John Kettler]

Aragorn2002,

I agree with Der Alte Fritz. Recently, I was reading a doc (wish I could remember where; might've been CARL) on the different German defensive schemes during the War in the East, and that one was prominently mentioned in the late war discussion. If I find it again, I'll let you know.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Aragorn2002]

Please do that, John, thanks.

[Bannon DC]

Too big for effective CMBB scenarios... maybe with CMC.

[John Kettler]

Aragorn2002,

Found it, I think. DA Pamphlet 20-233 Historical Study: German Defensive Tactics Against Russian Breakthroughs. See p. 42 et seq.

http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/docrepository/dapam20_233.pdf.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Aragorn2002]

Excellent, John, thank you very much. I'm gonna read it right away.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi John

The document I was referring to was "Military Improvisations during the Russian Campaign"

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/milimprov/ch02.htm#IV

However Rauss makes the point that this tactics was only used at Lvov and East Prussia in Jan 1945.

cheers

[JasonC]

I note that Raus has to be used with caution as a source. He is a known teller of "fish stories" and recycler of wartime propaganda, who pretended at times in the postwar interviews that he had personal knowledge of things he actually was relaying from other officers or Signal. Some of what he says is true, of course. You just can't assume anything is true if he is the only one saying it. Not that this sort of doctrinal thing is his favorite subject to exaggerate about, it isn't. Just saying, use anything from Raus with caution.

[Aragorn2002]

DAF and John, both very interesting studies. Thank you. The most important aspect of the 'new' defensive doctrine seems to have been the last-minute withdrawl from the first line of resistance in order to avoid the artillery barrage, which must have sound a lot easier than it must have been in practice. Especially given the impressive infiltration skills of the Russians and their skills in hiding their offensive preparations. And yes, these studies have to be used with caution, since Raus obviously wanted to impress the people who asked him to make the studies. Still, fascinating stuff.

[Stalins Organ]

Wasn't the "last minute withdrawl" specifically something from Seelowe Heights & the commander there was lauded for it?

Doesn't sound like a particularly widespread doctrine on the surface of it.

[Aragorn2002]

That part of the doctrine can only have been of use when the front was more or less stabile, after things went mobile again it was pretty worthless, I guess.

If I recall correctly the 'last minute withdrawl' was used a long time before 1945, even in Normandy and sooner. And as Raus stated, for such a tactic you need disciplined and experienced units, which weren't around much anymore in 1945. The result of such a withdrawl could easily have become a chaotic rout.

[John Kettler]

Aragorn2002,

Glad to help! Earlier German static defense doctrine in Standing Fast (pics and maps via hyperlink)

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/wray/wray.asp

German tactical doctrine 1942, with defense in context

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german-tactical-doctrine/index.html

German battalion defensive area (North Africa)

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/defense-areas-north-africa.html

German hedgehog defense in the East

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/trench-warfare-eastern-front.html

The German Defense of Berlin (Generalobertst Halder was impressed by the report!)

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/germandefberl.htm

These may keep you out of mischief!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Der Alte Fritz]

I think that what you need to bear in mind is that German defensive doctrine did not change that much during the course of the war. It arose from the Battle of the Somme in 1916 in which the German defenders lost almost as many men as the attackers pro rata. This led to a switch away from a linear defence to what was termed 'elastic defence' which was based on strongpoints within the trench system which covered the ground between them by artillery and MG fire. Loss of ground was accepted so long as the attack ground to a halt and was then counter attacked immediately. This doctrine was used during the entire Second World War with local changes to adapt it to local conditions. So individual strongpoints were abandoned in 1943 as being too vulnerable to Soviet artillery but they remained within the linear trench system. No change in doctrine although the defences look very different.

My current project is a series of scenarios which will show the 'doctrine' type defence and then the various adaptations to it. The first one of these is posted at TPG as German Defence 1941. So any information that you can dig up on this area would be very useful in the future.

cheers

[John Kettler]

Der Alte Fritz,

Recommend, then, that you get cracking straight away on Standing Fast, for it precisely covers your area of interest.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi John

I have read "Standing Fast" several times. But I am still unable to get firm data on Winter 1942 defences around the Stalingrad relief force. This was known as the battles on the River Chir. An Infantry Division held the river line and the 11th Panzer Division operated behind them dealing with any armour penetrations like the one at State Farm 79 on 5th December. But data on the positions of the 336th ID is very scarce. Any ideas?

[John Kettler]

Der Alte Fritz,

Didn't know you'd read "Standing Fast." Will see what I can come up with/what finds me, now that I know what you seek.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Der Alte Fritz,

Info on 11 PD at Chir

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1253

Balck bio

http://www.11thpanzer.com/dsp_balck.htm

A lot of OOB data and combat loss data, including much Russian, for Chir area and vic.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53143&start=135

You may now need new underwear! Red Star State Farm! Maps from both sides, a German general's account (von Knobelsdorff) of the battle, Russian comments, etc.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=116000&start=105&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Russian tank losses, maps, woes with flamethrower tanks and frozen mine plows

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53143&start=120

Very detailed American analysis of Chir River battles by Russel Stolfi. Maps, pics, OOB, the works!

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=116000&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Regards,

John Kettler

[Der Alte Fritz]

Dear John

Well done! Loads of stuff here, I make it about 400 pages. It will take me a while to sift all of this. I did not someone saying that the 336th only held a 10km front and not 30km front as in the Panzer Battles Book. I will have to look into this.

Thanks

[Aragorn2002]

Wonderful information indeed. It will take me weeks to plough through it, but what amazing information can be found if you know where to look!

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi john

Oh dear. The reason I was interested in this battle was that is was typical of a German defence with an extended line, von M said the division held a 30km front line. According to your sources it was 10km. Since a Bn holds a front of 2km, a division at standard spacing holds 8km, so just adding the reserve regt into the front line makes it 10km. So quite normal.

How about one of those German corset divisions that had to fight their way out after the collapse of the Allied armies on either flank of the 6th Armee. Did they end up holding extended lines and if so how did they do it?

Any ideas?

cheers

[John Kettler]

Aragorn2002 and Der Alte Fritz,

You're welcome! 400 pages, eh? A mere piffle! Actually, I didn't keep track of the count. Too focused on the hunt!

Der Alte Fritz,

Maybe it did. I thought some of the material, the stuff with the Romanians specifically mentioned, talked about just such matters. If not, get me a divisional number or something. Will see what I can do.

Regards,

John Kettler

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[Daviswilson]

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