Paper Tiger Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I am currently working on a very large map and I've been VERY careful to avoid any potential pitfalls regarding facing. When I created the map I set up South as the Blue Friendly Direction and North as the Red Friendly Direction. Then I built my map up and it's 3.2km long and 1.2km wide. The red set up zone extends from the north board edge to within 600m of the south board edge. Then, I purchased the units and set up the Red forces myself. So I loaded up the alpha version and got started and voila, all the Red units deployed in forward positions were facing backwards, i.e. north, and as I moved further back towards the Red Board edge I found that they mysteriously started turning towards some point just off the centre of the east board edge. Finally, when I got towards the Red Board edge (about 600m from it), they were generally facing the right way. Since I manually placed all the units myself, I know that they were set up facing the Blue Friendly Board edge and indeed, the immobilised tanks were still facing the direction that I set them up in. But all the other units reorientate themselves to face away from the Blue direction. I also repeated the experience, this time with AI set up zones and it was exactly the same. Now I've mentioned this before and I got this from one of the Beta Testers. If the Scen/Map designer sets up Blue friendly as East (default) but chooses to create set up zones on the West side of the map you will get what you've described. That actually describes what I'm seeing perfectly so it's obviously not a bug. So my question is this; Since it obviously doesn't set them up to face the enemy friendly direction, how does the AI choose to set up it's units on large maps? If the problem is the map size then that's fine, I'll just stick to smaller ones when I need the AI to start on board and stick to meeting battles on large maps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I'm not so sure of the map size as an issue, but I'm certainly curious about North /South editor logic. I will do some test setups maps and see if I can duplicate this problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handihoc Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Just to add my two penneth worth, as I've mentioned in another thread some while ago, I've come across this problem (as a player) a number of times. Sometimes, too, the units remain with their backs to me even after coming under fire from my troops. It kind've dissipates the immersion factor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I made a Meet test map: east to west = 1360 meters north to south = 2560 meters I set Blue friendly to north and red friendly to south, with set up zones and AI set up zones to match. I deployed Blue facing towards south and red to north. Play tested 1st set up/ceasefire and setup/play first minute/ceasefire. Did this with both sides. Also changed to Blue Attack. The results were always the same. All Blue units (no matter were placed on the map) faced south. All red units faced north. I do not dispute what you and others have seen. It is just not showing up this time. If you would care to send me the scen file I'd be happy to look at it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 My 2¢ Did you place them into a 'setup zone' square painted in the map editor? Sometimes the AI thinks the setup zone means it has some latitude on how to place things. Also in the AI orders (assuming you have AI orders), does the group start its first orders with a yellow AI movement square painted? Again, the AI will think it has permission to adjust within the painted area. So if you want to lock your units in place no painted map 'setup zone' (or at least place 'em outside of any setup zone) and no initial painted area in the AI orders set (orders 1). Of course AI orders # 2, 3 and 4 will get painted movement commands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Paper: I did get your test scen and will look into it. My experience with your past scen's and QB Maps is they are Beautifully crafted and correctly made. So I expect to see the same. I'll let you know what I find and pass on any bug reports to BFC....Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted September 10, 2008 Author Share Posted September 10, 2008 Beautifully crafted and correctly made. LOL... you must have been very disappointed when you opened up the file then. I had the idea to repeat the experiment on a completely blank map to eliminate the possibility that some terrain feature might be responsible for the misalignment of the AI units. Sure enough, when I fired up the test scenario, all the Red units were placed in an identical fashion, the closer they were to the Blue board edge, the more they turned towards their own board edge. I was glad (?) to hear that you saw this behaviour when you loaded it up as I was a bit worried that your system would correct the error and deploy them correctly, i.e. facing the blue board edge. So if you want to lock your units in place no painted map 'setup zone' (or at least place 'em outside of any setup zone) and no initial painted area in the AI orders set (orders 1). Unfortunately, I first picked this up when I noticed that units I had positioned myself were reversing their facings. It is a BIG problem when you are trying to position the AI vehicles in clever places only to find that the AI takes it upon itself to re-face them in the same position so that their arses (apologies folks) are facing the Blue board edge. You can imagine how effective that 'ambush' is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handihoc Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Yep, I've come across the vehicle thing too, in PT's scenarios and others. As described, a vehicle placed in an excellent ambush position, but facing completely or partially in the wrong direction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 18, 2008 Author Share Posted October 18, 2008 I'm bumping this since you guys are getting a v1.11 patch made up. I would really like to see this problem addressed once and for all. As map sizes get bigger and bigger, this issue is going to become more and more noticable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 I keep trying to remember to test this but I think the AI is orienting on the farthest forward objective. I will have to play around with this some more but I think that is it. Actually, now that I think of it, I saw this in Milk Run. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 18, 2008 Author Share Posted October 18, 2008 I keep trying to remember to test this but I think the AI is orienting on the farthest forward objective Woo hoo. That makes a lot of sense. I'll have to test this out myself and see if it works. If it IS this, then it's a very simple fix for the scenario designer. Thanks for that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 I ran a quick test yesterday afternoon and I got mixed results. I opened up the 'Flames' map, the map where I first noticed this behaviour, and painted another AI objective zone right down the entire Blue board edge. Then I loaded it up, waited a minute or so for the AI to orientate it's units and then cease fired. When I reviewed the map, the first, and most forward placed unit I looked at was facing the blue board edge at last. Woo hoo! I thought, problem solved but ...no. I looked at a few other units and found that they were all facing the wrong way. However, this time, I followed their facing and found that in each instance, they were facing one of the objectives. Unfortunatley, all the objectives on this map are 'shared' i.e. the same for Blue and Red so I can't say if it chooses to face the Blue objective or one of it's own. To determine that will require further testing and, as you can imagine, editing and loading up maps of this size isn't funny, so I can't do this too often without me 'wasting' my quality CMSF time. However, we seem to be on the right track. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 I did a couple of tests this morning to confirm if it was the objective zones that was responsible for the peculaiar facing. I returned to my 'Flames' map and deleted all of Blue's objective zones, but not Red's and fired the mission up. Once again, units were still facing all different ways so I returned to the editor and removed all of Red's objectives too bar the Blue board edge objective. I fired it up again and ... squat... exactly the same. Wht I am seeing is that units on the north edge of the map are facing south while those on the south are facing north, and in both cases, usually deep into their own set up zones. So I don't feel as though I'm any nearer to solving this problem. PLEASE!!! BFC, explain to us what's going on here. This is making scenario design on large maps quite frustrating. How does facing work? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Yeah, I ran the same test with no result. Damn, we're still poking around this one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelco Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Kinko that. It has been a long time and this one remains. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 Hmm, I'm not going to let this one go away yet. I would really like to have this issue sorted a.s.a.p. and I really can't see how it's a difficult fix. The AI should set up it's units facing the player's FBE when it deploys it's units. And when the scenario designer places them himself without set-up zones, they should 'remember' their facing and keep it. In this latter instance, they DO remember their facing as they are facing the same way the next time I open the mission up in the scenario editor. However, when I fire the scenario up the AI takes it upon itself to swivel them around in their locations to present their backsides to the enemy... a very defiant gesture I'm sure, but not very effective for spotting . Whatever system the game is currently using must be more complex than the above. And this issue is going to come up more and more frequently as map sizes grow. So, how about entering into a discussion about how this fundamental game feature is designed to work... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 So, how about entering into a discussion about how this fundamental game feature is designed to work... <sigh> I guess I should have known better. Never mind, I'm not going to obsess over this issue so I'll leave it alone until the next time I'm creating a scenario and I see the AI doing the same thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 This one is really, really annoying. It would be nice to get some sort of answer on this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 In order to engage Steve on this I suspect we'll somehow have to make it relevant to CMBB, Machiavellian politics or otherwise allow him to use one of his famous car analogies. I am a little surprised that the game developer won't address an important issue that's posted in a polite and respectful manner on their own forums and yet the 'Why do the Syrians suck?' thread gets several posts. (No offense to anyone posting on thread by the way.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSColonel_131st Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Because they do! Suck I mean. Seriously, hope you guys get a reply. Maybe call it "why does AI facing suck?" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelco Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Could it be possible that at the start of the scenario the AI troops face a direction on the basis of best cover, concealment and field of fire? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 I don't think so as I did a test with a completely empty flat map and the problem was observed there. There was zero cover available on that map. However, one of the beta testers had a look at that map and found the same problem so it's quite possible that BFC are looking at this and it'll get sorted on the 'quiet'. So far they've been pretty good at working out the wrinkles in the game so I guess I'll just trust them on this too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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