Hill 621: have map but no scenario

[Cpl Steiner]

Hi everyone,

After literally two months or more of work, I have finally completed a CM:SF map based on the classic SL scenario, Hill 621. However, I have a problem.

I have been trying make the Hill 621 scenario in the CM:SF setting but it is becoming a real nightmare. The original scenario portrays an attempt by the Russians to seize a hill from the Germans in WWII. However, trying to transport this forward to 2008 is very difficult. Any scenario in which the Syrians or Unconventionals have to take territory from the Americans just seems ludicrous to me. I mean, even if they took it, how long could they hold it? A hill, in particular, is a silly piece of terrain to try to hold, as it is totally exposed to American airpower.

Trying to do the scenario the other way around, with the Americans trying to take the hill, might work. However, this would totally change the nature of the original scenario, in which a large Russian force was attacking a small German force with lots of support assets such as HMGs, AT Guns and artillery. This situation would be reversed if the Americans had to take the hill from the Syrians.

A final alternative I've been toying with would be to say that Syrian Special Forces and Unconventional Fighters must take the hill in order to attack Route Lighting, the MSL for TF Thunder. The Americans would have relatively weak forces because they are only guarding the supply lines and not in the front line, so to speak. However, I still have a problem with Syrians winning control of a hill. Even if it overlooked Route Lighting, how long would they stay up there before they were cleaned off it by American airpower?

I am therefore in a quandary as to how to go about doing Hill 621 justice. Can it be done?

[Pandur]

hm, make it RED vs. RED! BLUE on BLUE would work too but is ultra deadly i guess.

take top of the line syrian equipment(TURMS&Co. BMP-2, etc...) vs. "more" syrian crap equipment, (BMP-1, BTR´s, crapy tanks...).

just an idea

i guess if you manage to make it plausible with BLUE vs RED it will still have a strange feeling attached to it.

[Paper Tiger]

The M1A1 is just too tough for the Syrians to handle so it HAS to go. I had the idea of substituting Bradleys for the AFVs for the US, they have a significant AT capability but are very fragile. I suppose you could do the same with Strykers. Just leave out the M1's, give the Syrians high motivation and you've got yourself a game. Total fantasy but FUN. Hey, look at 'In Harms Way', that's way out there in the twilight zone but it worked for me. Good luck.

[Pete Wenman]

My ASL stuff is in storage so I can't get the scenario card out.

Given the interest this map is attracting how about listing the ASL scenario order of battles here, and we can all chip in with our suggestions of the modern alternative.

I'm a great believer that US vs Syria can be balanced and fun, but as others have said this needs the US armour to be reduced/non existant. Hence my first thoughts here are for the US force on the hill to be infantry only

(with limited ammo). It may not be historically accurate (can something from the future be historical?) in so much that the US side ought to have overwhelming firepower but hey its a only a game.

[Cpl Steiner]

Thanks for your ideas.

Paper Tiger,

For the armour reinforcements, the original scenario matched T-34s against Panzer IVs in one reinforcement phase. As you suggest, a comparable match in CM:SF would probably be Bradleys vs. BMP-2s, rather than M1A1s vs. T-72s.

Another reinforcement slot matched SU122 and SU152 assault guns against STGIII assault guns. In this match up, the Russians have the advantage. A comparable match in CM:SF would therefore probably be Syrian T-72 TURMS vs. Bradleys.

Right at the end of the scenario the Germans get a single more powerful STGIII, so maybe here I could substitute a single M1A1 that managed to get armed and fuelled in time to reach the battle.

As for the hill objective, as you say, it is pure fantasy. I'm tempted to make it a phase-line type objective (touch objective) rather than a true hold objective, and put most of the Syrian VPs into causing enemy casualties. The Syrians would therefore have as their mission the destruction of all American forces up to the ridge line. Perhaps the ridge line is to be were the Syrians go firm on the reverse slope.

Does this sound good?

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Pete Wenman:

My ASL stuff is in storage so I can't get the scenario card out.

Given the interest this map is attracting how about listing the ASL scenario order of battles here, and we can all chip in with our suggestions of the modern alternative.

Pete,

Great idea. I was typing my preceding message so I missed your post.

Here's the OOB for the original SL Hill 621:

Battle Length: 10 turns.

German Starting Forces:

2x Leaders

8x Squads

6x MGs

3x Panzerfausts

1x Radio (artillery module)

German Reinforcements #1 (turn 1):

1x Half-track

1x Towed AT Gun plus crew

1x MG

German Reinforcements #2 (turn 2):

4x Panzer IV (75mm)

German Reinforcements #3 (turn 4):

4x Half-tracks

1x Leader

4x Squads

3x MGs

8x Panzerfausts

1x Radio (artillery module)

German Reinforcements #4 (turn 5):

1x Panzer IV (75mm)

2x StGIII (75mm)

1x Half-track

1x Towed AT Gun plus crew

German Reinforcements #5 (turn 8):

1x StgIII (105mm)

Russian Starting Forces:

3x Leaders

48x Squads !!

6x MGs

Russian Reinforcements #1 (turn 2):

6x T-34 (76mm)

Russian Reinforcements #2 (turn 5):

3x SU-122 (122mm)

2x SU-152 (152mm)

2x Half-track

8x Squads

2x MGs

[Paper Tiger]

Sounds good. Of course, it will have to be Bradleys over Strykers because otherwise the US gets the game killer, javelins. So I'd go with Bradleys v BMPs. The BMP-1 is actually quite good and it's more common. I'd probably go with a Mech Infantry Battalion rather that the Republican Guards as they'd be unlikely to be doing this sort of thing. Strip them of most of their BMPs and allow the remainder to arrive as reinforcements.

I'd be VERY wary of putting in an M1 but as long as it arrives quite late, it shouldn't unbalance things too badly. I always lost that 105mm StuG quite quickly. Can't see that happening with the M1 too often.

Oh, and I'd restrict the US troops set up zone to the centre of the board and hit it with an AI artillery barrage to simulate the bad order that the germans started with. Nothing too heavy, maybe 81mm mortars so that some troops will get killed/wounded/pinned etc before the Red infantry pours onboard.

Yes, as you can tell, I've been thinking about this situation quite a lot and I'd like to see you do it justice. I actually am working the 'spirit' of this situation into my campaign with most of these ideas but it's a 'stuff up' mission and so some people won't see it.

[Pete Wenman]

Here's my take

Starting Forces: Blue

1x Plt (rifle) less its strykers, although one

immobile stryker could be made available as an ammo dump.

experiance regular, motivation normal, fit fit, +2 ldrship, supply scarce, equipment fair.

2x 81mm mtrs

R1

1x 40mm stryker

1x coy HQ

1x sniper team

R2

3x MGS

R3

1x Scout plt

2x 120mm mtr

2x 120mm mtr

R4

2x M1134 (ATGM vehicle)

R5

1x (or maybe 2x) Bradley

RED

2x Reserve Inf Battalions

1x MG Plt

R1

1x Mech Inf Recon Plt (being 5x BMP)

R2

1x Tank plt (plus Tank co HQ tank for a total of 4 tanks)

1x Mech Inf Plt (plus HQ unit and BMP)

I would suggest all Red units have normal motivation, and good or excellent equipment

Just my 2p

[M1A1TC]

A single M1A1 would never go into battle, we always have atleast one wingman

[Cpl Steiner]

Pete,

Good job! I'll give it a go. However, I think 2 battalions for RED is going to cripple most players' rigs so I may have to scale down a bit.

M1A1TankCommander,

I did wonder about this myself. I read in the book "Ambush Alley" that the M1A1s there had trouble being refuelled and rearmed for the battle and so entered it piecemeal but they probably still went in pairs. In any case, it may just be too powerful to add 2x M1A1s, even at the end of the battle, as RED will already have been decimated crossing all the open ground to Hill 621. I will have to see if the M1A1 gets to play a part.

Paper Tiger,

I've managed to play out the battle about half way using just infantry, BMP-1s and Bradleys, scaled down by about 50%, and it worked very well. I threw in a suppressing barrage of mortar fire for RED as suggested by you and this definitely added to the tension of the game. It didn't kill too many Americans but put a lot of smoke and dust down which helped RED get things rolling. Nice suggestion!

[Paper Tiger]

Hey heh! I thought it might. From my own experience, a large number of vehicles really slow frames down but lots of infantry on foot are not so bad. The real problem with the vehicles is that they sometimes turn to burning wrecks and that smaoke KILLS frame rates big time.

There shouldn't be a lot of vehicles in this scenario as long as you strip the US company and the Red mech battalion at the start. My rig isn't that impressive but I'm playtesting scenarios with a full Mech battalion for Red against a full mech company for Blue and they play just fine but I'm pushing it.

Oh, and watch out for the frame rate hit when the Red reinforcements arrive. It picks up again after a minute or so but the processor suddenly gets a lot of extra work to do and it shows.

PS, regarding the M1, I wouldn't bother with it. Perhaps another Bradley (or two) would be better. If there's still red armour on board it's got a chance to do some damage and if there's not, well, it's pretty effective against infantry too. But it's your baby. Whatever you do, I'll definitely be playing it.

[Roter Stern]

As Pandur said, this looks like a scenario that would work best as Red-vs-Red.

I'd have Veteran/Crack Syrian Republican Guard hold the hill, with Green Syrian Infantry assaulting it.

As far as vehicles, looking at the SL OOB, I'd do the following:

Half-track = BTR-60

Panzer IV = T-72, either the 2001 or TRUMS-T versions

StGIII = probably best replaced with off-map Arty

Towed AT Gun = perhaps an SPG-9 Technical?

T-34 = BMP-1 … after all troops riding inside the BMP-1 arent any more protected than they are riding on top of a T-34

SU-122 and SU-152 = best available T-62 or 2001 T-72

Looking forward to it!

[Cpl Steiner]

The Louch,

I've already started doing Red vs. Blue - but of course I may redo as Red vs. Red if I don't get a satisfactory scenario.

In my initial tests I'm getting good results. I've got a battalion of Mech infantry, most on foot but with 2 platoons arriving in BMPs after about 5 minutes, attacking 2 platoons of dismounted US Bradley infantry. The dismounted US platoons can set up anywhere in the centre of the map.

The attack is preceded by a barrage of 81mm mortar fire that hits 6 separate target areas for about a minute. The areas change each time you play. The US side usually takes a few casualties in the initial barrage.

Just before the barrage ends, the Syrians attack. At the moment they are managing to advance and are using appropriate cover (what little there is) effectively - albeit with heavy casualties.

I think I can make it so the US side is hard-pressed to avoid being overrun. Numbers are on the side of the Syrians, even if they get slaughtered initially.

[ February 02, 2008, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Cpl Steiner ]

[Roter Stern]

Either way sounds like an interesting scenario... is it available for download?

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by The Louch:

Either way sounds like an interesting scenario... is it available for download?

Not yet. I will probably be working on it for a good few weeks to come. I keep chopping and changing to get around problems.

My latest version has 2 Stryker platoons on map initially (vehicles set to "scarce" ammo and "poor" equipment so there are no Javelins or grenade launchers). I'm going to attack them with BMPs that dismount their infantry closer to the objectives, covered by fairly static MGs and ATGMs. Hopefully this will give the battle more of a modern feel compared to my previous effort, which wasn't very satisfying.

Basically I may be forced to depart somewhat from the original Hill 621 OOB and reinforcement schedule in favour of something more modern - i.e. a fluid mechanized advance rather than a slow infantry slog.

My new premise is that a Syrian mechanized regiment has somehow managed to threaten the main US supply route whilst heavy fighting elsewhere ties down US airpower. The only US forces available are some poorly equipped rear-echelon units who have to hold the line whilst reinforcements and scant available airpower is called to the scene.

[ February 02, 2008, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Cpl Steiner ]

[Paper Tiger]

Yeah, I'd prefer to see Strykers as there's more vehicular diversity than the Bradleys. I didn't know you could get rid of the javelins entirely with 'scarce' ammo. As long as there are no javelins, you should have something that works there. You can add both ATGM and MG versions as reinforcements and do away with the M1 and that will fit in with your premise too. Looking forward to seeing it.

[Roter Stern]

/poke

[Cpl Steiner]

Guys, sorry for the delay. The trouble is, I'm really struggling with this scenario now. I think I've bitten off more than I can chew. I have 2 PBEM games going at the moment (neither is CM:SF) and I'm also in the middle of a Web Apps. Development course so finding the time to keep on top of things is becoming difficult.

I'm tempted to just release the map and let someone else have a go. If someone would like to have a go at doing a Hill-621-style scenario I'd be happy to pass on my map to them. Alternatively I could just publish it as is on CMMODS and you can decide what you want to do with it after that.

Sorry to give up on this but I just don't seem to have the time for it any more.

What do you think?

P.S. - The map is complete - it's just the scenario part I am struggling with. Of course, if I passed the map on to someone else, they would have full freedom to tweak it to their heart's content - effectively becoming the new owner of it.

[Paper Tiger]

Well, who's going to say no to an offer like that? I'm sorry to hear that you've given the project up as I was looking forward to playing it. When somebody else does a scenario, the scenario is capable of surprising me. If I do it, I know what the AI has/hasn't and that makes it more exciting.

Please go ahead and post it CMMODS and see what other people can do with it. I think Webwing wanted to do a whole campaign on your map. I could definitely do something with it but I'd probably tweak it a LOT.

[Cpl Steiner]

Hello again everyone,

Just to let you all know, the map is now up on CMMODS. I hope some of you find it of use.

P.S. - I had a few attempts to get the correct version on CMMODS. One version still had Red forces in it, and another still had Red AI support targets in it. The version now on CMMODS should be clean. If you downloaded it before this post, please download it again.

[Rokossovski]

Thank you for posting the map. Its very nice setting for all sorts of combat goodness.

I know its for CMSF, but for some reason it makes me want to break out those German 4-6-7s and Soviet 4-4-7s and 6-2-8s.

[Paper Tiger]

Thanks for sharing that with us. I downloaded it before going to work this morning and quickly opened it in the editor. It's a MONSTER! I took so long to get to the preview that I wasn't able to sneak a peak. I'll try again tomorrow morning and take a look. If I use it for anything, I'll let you know about it.