Cornering help

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[the Fighting Seabee]

Your putting your troops into a killzone. That's not a good idea. If you have other squads, have them move in on them from another direction. If not, back up and make your way to where you can destroy them. Use your artillery for situations like this.

[Wiggum]

Try to get your RPG into a position to fire at the building, maybe it works.

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[the Fighting Seabee]

Using smoke or tanks is really your only way to move your men where you indicated. If you HAD to move them, use smoke. Even if you have a vehicle, smoke helps obscure the enemy's view of you. Split your squad if you only have one and open fire with one group, move with the other. Otherwise your just sitting in a kill zone.

I guess I don't understand the question.

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[Chelco]

How would you do it in real life?

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[Wiggum]

Originally posted by Chelco:

How would you do it in real life?

I think, and that maybe works in cmsf to, you could blow 2 holes into the wall next to the building and attack hard and quick. Enter the room and attack at close combat range.

[Parabola]

Again though, that doesn't address the whole "Taking a corner in CMx2" concept. Is it just broken game mechanics?

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[gibsonm]

Well you have it already for both air and arty.

Or do you mean "an indirect fire capability for onboard weapons"?

[ChrisND]

In this situation the minimum you are going to need is another squad to gain LOS at a longer range down the street so that they can gain suppressive fires.

[YankeeDog]

I think you need to be realistic here. The example above shows a Green Syrian infantry squad trying to take a blind corner, one of the most difficult tactical situations in MOUT. There is enemy waiting in ambush, in good cover at near point-blank range. No out-of-LOS grenade-throwing mechanic, or anything like that, is going to help this situation. Nor should it.

People watch way too much of this SWAT/Spec. Ops building clearing-type stuff on TV. SWAT-type wall stacks and forced entries done by highly trained teams with lots of support against an inferior, supressed enemy. Generally, the assaulting group has total control of the exterior environment and has already forced any enemy away from exterior walls and entrances via supressive fire, or the threat of it.

If you're going to model near-LOS grenade throwing by the assault group, then you also need to model near-LOS grenade throwing by the defending group. (What do you think they're going to do, just sit there while grenades come flying over the wall?) Considering the defending group has superior cover in the above example, I'm pretty sure I know who would win any over-the-wall and/or around-the-corner grenade chucking contest.

To have any chance of turning a blind corner like that you MUST get the enemy off of a forward, agressive stance, and into a hiding stance. Once you've done this, you can move a squad to close to the corner, and then place "face" command parallel to the wall, AWAY from the corner -- this will usually make the squad line up along the wall, safely out of LOS.

Then, you can issue a second face command, rotating the squads facing around the corner. As the squad changes its formation to comply with the new face order, 1-2 squad members will generally line up on the corner, and get LOS to the building.

Again, this assumes the enemy in the building is already supressed. There's just no away 1-2 guys peeking around a corner are going to win fire ascendancy against 5-6 guys in a building 20m away. Just ain't gonna happen. Cover is approximately equal. Unless one side is vastly superior in training and tech, superior numbers are going to win.

This is tricky to do, you have to get the face command change just right, and doesn't always work. I think whether or not is works it has to do with where the action spots are in relation to the corner. But usually, by fiddling with the exact waypoint location and face command, you can get the squad to gradually turn the corner until you can fire and/or chuck grenades around the corner.

It's much easier to to when you can split squads; one team hugs the corner, the next moves a bit further around the corner, etc. But it should be easier with more highly trained troops. Nevertheless, it's stuff like this that makes me think that perhaps more Syrian types should have Split commands available. At the least, Veterans and above. Possibly Regulars.

Incidentally, specific to the above example, you should be able use Area Fire to throw grenades over the wall, into the second story of the enemy-held building, since you have LOS to this floor. I've done this before and it's quite effective. Grenade blasts on the second floor will injure or supress enemy on the first floor.

Cheers,

YD

[SgtMuhammed]

Outstanding post YD.

In a real situation this would be a "pull back and nuke it from orbit" situation. If you can't get heavy support then you bypass places like this or seal it off till you can bring some big toys to the party.

Adam1, the methode you outlined would result in one dead squad.

[Chelco]

There's just no away 1-2 guys peeking around a corner are going to win fire ascendancy against 5-6 guys in a building 20m away. Just ain't gonna happen. Cover is approximately equal. Unless one side is vastly superior in training and tech, superior numbers are going to win.

I think YD nailed it.

Still, it would be nice to have a "peek around corner" order.

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[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Adam1:

You need to throw the grenades before they know you're standing there

When you say face away from the corner, do you mean have them turn around and face the trench there?

Yeah, more or less. Play with it, and you'll see what I mean. If you put the waypoint very close to the corner, and change the orientation with the Face command, you can dramatically alter how the squad shakes out in relation to the corner.

Like I said, it's a bit tricky. 20 minutes of trial-and-error experimenting with exactly where you put the waypoint (sometimes it needs to be a bit back of the corner, depending on where the action spot grid is in relation to the corner), and what direction you make the squad face will get you further than 1000 words by yours truly.

[SlapHappy]

I see you're playing "Assault on Precinct 13" with Blue as AI and Syrian as player.

I can feel your pain, as I really like that scenario , but have never played it as Red. I've never had the AI get inside the compound proper and I could see how it would be hard to do so even under player control. If you were playing Blue with Red inside the compound, you could just blast the wall adjoining the building and assault straight in.

Lacking that feature for Red, you will have to overwhelm the defensive position using smoke. I agree that if you could use the corner as cover better it would at least give you some chance.

Good luck with that procedure. The Red army is so limted in tactical possibilities.......

[SlapHappy]

One thought...could you fire an RPG into that second floor wall using area fire? I mean the wall without windows that faces toward the trench.

Maybe you could disrupt the troops inside and rush another squad around the corner?

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[YankeeDog]

Well, like I said, it doesn't always work. And no amount of "cornering" is going to help you in the situation you posted.

But I'll try to work up an example of turning a blind corner and post pictures next weekend er sumfink. Don't have the time to do it ATM.

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[ChrisND]

Originally posted by SgtMuhammed:

Outstanding post YD.

In a real situation this would be a "pull back and nuke it from orbit" situation.

Just to be sure.

[Darkmath]

IMHO, I think cornering is ,though usefull, is micromanagement at an entire squad scale.

I mean, how IRL 10 men could be ordered to corner at the same time?

How many soldiers could be ordered to overwatch at a corner ?

In this case, I would think you can't put reasonably more than 3 soldiers who can really overwatch a corner , as you already said. But 3 soldiers isn't a squad or even a split squad.

As for the tactical problem itself , maybe you could put several HUNT waypoints to the corner so that the last waypoint is perpendicular to the buildings, then the squad will be facing directly the threat.

Instead of a straight line, you would have a detour via the front of the bunker.

Make sure the squad is out of their LOS in previous waypoints, if it's ever possible.

Problem: the squad redeploy in each waypoints. I'm affraid the redeploy "dance" could make the squad in enemy's LOS .

I don't think it's a good solution either.