snake_eye Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 [[/qb] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrrprecon Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 Originally posted by MEFBRAVO: Just wanted to see what thoughts were on this tactic and how it relates to CM:SF. First, I have no military experience just what I have read, so please correct on anything I have said incorrectly. One of the Tactics the US uses is based on the 3 F's: 1. Find the enemy- recon 2. Fix the enemy in position- supressing 3. Finish the enemy with overwhelming firepower- arty, CAS, more weapons This appears to have strong merit in the game and I used successfully in mission 1 of campaign. However, with limited resources and it being a game, I am having a harder time applying when it comes to UO. I am playing airbase which from what I have read is a tough map to begin with. I am wondering how you all use your units to apply tactics of any sort, as well as when and how you have found best to use your infantry. I have read many posts on how they don't like to use infantry. I am more interested in how you have been successful using them. I am not so concerned about scoring points etc, as much as playing the game as realistic as I can but also keeping it fun. I cannot figure out when to deploy my infantry without them getting chewed up even when i have been supressing the enemy. Not deploying into a building but for street to street moving or bldg. to bldg. moving I seem to take significant losses. Almost, like I am missing a key ingredient to supressing the enemy. Overall, I believe the 3Fs make a lot of sense with the game, I just don't know exactly when and how to apply them. Anyone have any advice would be appreciated. Cheers! MEFBRAVO, in real combat, Urban warfare is unforgiving. Nowday's claymore mines are placed above door frames and are triggered once the door is breached. I lost a good friend of mine up in Talafar to a claymore above the door trick the haji's like to use. I think they made the game right on target when it comes to building to building fighting or CQB (Close Quarters Battle). A way to do it in game is use your MBT's, Bradleys or Strykers to suppress the enemy squad dug in and assault using your INF. But like i said Urban warfare is unforgiving, your always going to have allot of casualties. Right now they are building a MOUNT site in Fort Carson to train soldiers more effectivly on Urban warfare which most soldiers these days are only trained on open warfare. I know there is a MOUNT site built in Kentucky at the Armor Training School i went to, but it was completed after i graduated there and deployed to Iraq and got a real taste of Urban combat. So i guess in the future we will see how the US Urban warfare doctrine fares in time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Dick Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 The Special Forces compound on Fort Carson has had a MOUT site for years. One of our platoons actually came back from the MOUT site after playing with SF there, covered in welts. Simunition hurts, apparently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 "Haji"... What a great way to alienate the population. Incidently, what is MOUNT? I know MOUT, so what's the 'N' for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Dick Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 We had a sensitivity class in 03 that told us "Haji" was a derogatory term. But given the other alternatives and the various slurs used to describe enemies in the past, I think it's pretty tame. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 AIUI, "Haji" is arabic for "Pilgrim" Y'all are goin' about souding like John Wayne. But pretty much anything used in that fashion is going to be derogatory, regardless of the original meaning. The point is not that it is derogatory, in and of itself, but that it enables you to view the population so labeled as sub-human. Which is, AFAICT, a pretty daft thing to do when you are trying to win hearts and minds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Dick Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 Yeah, that's what they told us in 03. That it meant someone who had been to Mecca. But to use it on everyone was insulting and ignorant. But viewing people that you may be, by occupation, required to shoot on a regular basis as "sub-human" or different from you somehow is a defense mechanism. Wars against foreigners have always been easier on troops than say an internal conflict. If you can demonize the enemy, you reduce the chance of hesitation among your troops. On the other hand, if your troops speak the same language and view the enemy as they view themselves, then you risk hesitation and sympathy. There's no room for sympathy in combat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 Originally posted by Bradley Dick: There's no room for sympathy in combat. Agreed. However, there is a significant requirement for sympathy when dealing with civilians who are uncertain about your intention. Annoying them engenders support for the insurgents. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Dick Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 Suggesting that mistreatment by occupying forces increases the insurgency is an old idea. But with it, you have to acknowledge that a conflict where you can't seperate the enemy from the allies lends itself towards prejudice. If the enemy hides among civillians, kills your friends before retreating without a fight, attempts to undermine any progress you make in "winning the hearts and minds", kills its own people for helping you, and generally uses every inch of slack you cut them against you...... how would you feel ? Would you smile, feeling warm and fuzzy about the inhabitants as they use your own rules to attack you ? Would you sit back and bear no malice towards people who have no problems killing civillians ? Would you avoid paranoid demonization of the populace, even if it seemed like large portions of the population were trying to kill you or turning a blind eye to those who were ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 Hey, I didn't say that it was easy, but things like Haji (which I believe is a blanket term, so it does not differentiate between civilian and terrorist.) do not help. Even if it were aimed only at the terrorists it is associating a key Arab cultural identifier with terrorism. With that sort of mindset you only make it harder for yourself and it's hard enough already. According to Michael Yon there are some people who manage to deal with the split. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Dick Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 I say we're too easy on the Iraqi's, you say we're too hard. It's a matter of opinion, I think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrrprecon Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 Originally posted by Bradley Dick: The Special Forces compound on Fort Carson has had a MOUT site for years. One of our platoons actually came back from the MOUT site after playing with SF there, covered in welts. Simunition hurts, apparently. Sorry let me rephrase that. They are building a new URBAN MOUNT site with pyrotechnics and all the nice speacial effects and what not. I know what MOUNT site you are talking about bro, cause we had training there before i deployed to Iraq. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Dick Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 I thought you would have done that MOUT site prior to deployment, the whole regiment did. I even played OpFor for a week out there. I'd love to see the new one with all the high tech stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 Hi All, I have found that smoke works really well to cover movement and is particularly useful for infantry assaults. Regards John 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrrprecon Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Originally posted by Bradley Dick: I thought you would have done that MOUT site prior to deployment, the whole regiment did. I even played OpFor for a week out there. I'd love to see the new one with all the high tech stuff. Yeah, i was watching Discovery channel and they were showing the new MOUT site with all the pyrotechnics. It was pretty sweet, kinda wanted to go through that scenario. But my days of doing that are over, i'm going through my 2nd knee surgery and i am getting a P3 profile and MEB. So i am getting out of the Army, and personnally thats fine with me. I am currently one of the poor bastards that got sent to 3ID, after our Regiment moved to Fort Hood, Texas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigCat Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 I'd like to add one thing to this excellent topic. If you are used to play the CM1 games, in this one watch out where the door is of the building you wish to enter! Because your grunts are going to go merrily all around to find it with the results you might expect 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Dick Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Yeah, no kidding. I had to learn that the hard way BigCat. The permeable walls don't exist anymore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 The door thing does change thigs A LOT. Especially in highly built up areas. In CMx1 you could pretty much move in and out of structures as suited your plan. Considerations now have to be made for what is physically possible. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 EDITED for the sake of peace. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake_eye Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: The door thing does change thigs A LOT. Especially in highly built up areas. Steve I have found it the hard way, when a squad turned the wrong way and sustained few casualties and was finally wiped out trying to get to the door. I also had the same problem, after engineers blasted an house wall. I don't no why, they did not want to get in right after (playing R.T), despite my way point ???? They turned around the house till they found the door !!!!! fortunately, they were not shot at. A chance. What went wrong with that blasted wall ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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