Mortars

[Locksley]

Hey

I was just wondering does anybody find it useful to have the larger mortars (3", 81mm etc) on the battlefield, when spotters can pretty much do the same job and sit tight (and safe) in a building.

I have on several occasions had a 3" mortar on a map found that it isn't really that useful, because of the fact it has to sit out in the open and so soon gets KO.

Maybe I'm just using them wrong.

Ta

Tom

[Dook]

The larger on-board mortars can be very useful, especially when used in an indirect fire mode with an HQ spotting. They are good for taking out guns, MGs, etc. The 3-in mortar has a very high ammo load but you don't get a separate HQ to spot, which means that you have to rely on either the company HQ or one of your platoon HQs.

Using large mortars in direct fire mode without HQs is not nearly as effective.

[dugfromthearth]

I am pretty sure off-board is better.

On-board is just there for completeness an scenario design. You could have an entire armor force including its artillery engaged in a battle.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth:

I am pretty sure off-board is better.

In what way? They aren't as good for attacking point targets as they tend to scatter their rounds over a larger area. They also expend their ammo rather quickly for such attacks. I suppose they might be better for attacking large, dispersed targets though, like a company of infantry massed in a copse of trees prior to making an attack.

Michael

[Omi]

I can't get mortars to fire at target spotted by their HQ. It only works if I order them to attack, but they fire one round and then stop.

[Redwolf]

Well, it works for everybody else

The onboard mortars are much more accurate and much much much quicker on target than a FO.

[tar]

Here is the procedure for getting HQ spotting:

1) The HQ needs to have an active command line to the mortar unit in question. Check for the red line. Sometimes having another commander close by can "steal" command of the unit from the headquarters you would like to have in charge.

2) The HQ needs line of sight to the target -- Doh!

3) You then select the mortar unit, and give it a targeting order. You can place this target anywhere in the LOS of the headquarters. Note that when you do so, the text will read "Area Fire". This is normal.

4) As indicated by the "Area Fire" label, the target point WILL NOT track movement of the unit. That is because it really is treated as an area fire command by the mortar unit.

Does this help, or are you still having trouble getting spotted indirect fire from the mortars?

[dugfromthearth]

I will try that.

I too have been unable to get indirect fire out of my onboard mortars.

The main problem I have with onboard mortars is that in places where they can directly see the enemy they tend to be at too close of range.

[Walker]

Offhand, I can’t think of a heavy weapon that combines as much punch, survivability, speed of response and sheer usefulness as the British 3” on-board mortar employed way back in a concealed position, with a suitably bonused HQ spotting for it. My only grumble is the intricacy involved in making sure other HQs don’t usurp command from the designated spotting HQ. A lock-on option would be nice…

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Walker:

My only grumble is the intricacy involved in making sure other HQs don’t usurp command from the designated spotting HQ. A lock-on option would be nice…

Yes, others have voiced the same complaint. A lock-on feature does not sound unreasonable to me. Even though I can't recall having the problem myself, it isn't too hard to imagine circumstances where it might arise.

Michael

[tar]

Well, since it isn't likely to happen for this engine, I think it would be better to have a more generally applicable method of attaching support elements to particular headquarters. That way you would have the option (and burden -- nothing's free) of attaching MGs and even vehicles to particular platoon leaders and not having them shift around quite so easily. That would seem to mimic actual practice a bit better as well.

It would also solve the mortar problem.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by tar:

Well, since it isn't likely to happen for this engine, I think it would be better to have a more generally applicable method of attaching support elements to particular headquarters. That way you would have the option (and burden -- nothing's free) of attaching MGs and even vehicles to particular platoon leaders and not having them shift around quite so easily. That would seem to mimic actual practice a bit better as well.

It would also solve the mortar problem.

That sounds more or less what I do. If my force is big enough to include mortars of 3" or 81mm, there are usually a couple of HQs available to spot for them. All the platoon HQs should be up front with their squads, so there shouldn't be a lot of confusion there, though I will admit to exceptions.

The lighter mortars I will either give to the platoons as was historical practice in some armies, or group with the company HQ, which was also historical practice.

Michael

[BigDork]

Hiya...

Here's a little tutorial I did a while back for some people I PBEM with that explains how to use on board mortars with a HQ as a spotter. Hopefully you'll find it easy to understand and very helpful.

[Shades]

When I first started playing, mortars were a unit that I often lost before I had even used any of their shells and never used them to their ability. Now, most of mine usually survive my battles hiding out after using all their shells(Unless there victims of a well placed artillery barrage). Once you get the HQ spotting down, they can greatly assist your infantry squads trying to gain some tough ground on well defended areas. Your enemy may be too close to your squads for an artillery strike to come in and possibly take out some friendlies. You have so much more control on where you want the on-board mortar shells to land and can make those tough MG units break and run(well, walk)after a few direct hits. As a receiver, I can often ride out a 81mm barrage pretty well on a whole, but that pesky mortar unit pinpointing on one of my units can drive me nuts especially if I can't tell where shells are coming from.

[Slappy]

Great tutorial. Since this is the BO forum, I'll point out a small difference between CMBO and CMBB. In BO you CAN use a hiding HQ to observe fire for an onboard mortar. In BB, you CANNOT. You can however use a cover arc command to prevent your HQ from revealing itself. Thus, in both games the HQ can remain concealed while spotting. I highly recommend this.

As for the on v. off board mortar debate in the larger sense, I think both have their uses. Onboards are far better at dropping shells on one specific point. This makes them the best gun and MG killers in the game. At the same time, the low volume and lack of spread makes them poor killers of infantry formations, and poor at suppressing larger areas. You may hit one unit, but the rest of the company can just walk around the area being targeted. The spread of offboard mortars makes using them against single heavy weapons a waste of ammunition, but very effective against larger groupings of infantry. An offboard 81mm spotter may not rack up a ton of kills, but it will pin/panic and seriously disrupt timing. They are also far more useful for laying smoke than their onboard cousins.

Use both right, and you've got a very powerful combat arm.

[Omi]

Ok then, I've always used HQ to spot for mortars, but I thought the technique you guys were talking about made the mortars fire automatically at targets spotted by HQs.

I prefer to leave my mortars at the edges of forest. They don't need babysitting and they won't waste rounds.

[ November 16, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Omi ]

[Shades]

Mortar units won't automatically fire on units spotted by the HQ. You have to give the mortar unit an area target order first and they will continue to fire on the location for the full turn and then you have to cancel the order the following turn unless you want them to continue firing at the spot. They will usually stop firing when they get down to one last round.

Mortar units positioned at the edge of a tree line and not in hiding, will automatically fire on units spotted but run the risk of being spotted themselves. Usually though, I need their fire in a location where it is too dangerous to move them possibly into view but they can still contribute by lobbing some shells over a ridge and out of harms way.

[Howard R]

On board mortars can be very effective gun and strongpoint suppression. Use them against a gun or a machine gun, and watch the fireworks (so to speak).

I love 'em. Off board is great for large area suppression to allow your units to close on defended positions, especially the slow moving mg teams. On board can also be used to great effect by placing smoke right on the unit you are attempting to assault or blind.

[JonnyBlademan]

I have to say that until I read a tutorial (here) on how to use on map mortars, I couldn't figure out what use they were. I can't give any better application suggestions than what has already been written here! One of the things that keeps me coming back to this game is that there is no one right way to do something. Just when I think I have a scenario mastered, I'll read someone else's AAR and see how much I didn't notice in my battle.

[tar]

While we're on the subject of mortars, I'll add a bit about the vehicle-mounted mortars.

In CMBB they are truly useful because HQs can spot for them, allowing them to fire from concealed locations. In CMBO they are much harder to use, since you can't use HQs for spotting.

However what does work is that any on-board mortar (including the vehicle-mounted ones) can fire on a TRP as long as it hasn't moved since setup. That means that having TRPs with vehicle mortars makes the vehicle-mounted mortars much more useful.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by tar:

However what does work is that any on-board mortar (including the vehicle-mounted ones) can fire on a TRP as long as it hasn't moved since setup. That means that having TRPs with vehicle mortars makes the vehicle-mounted mortars much more useful.

Except that only the defending player gets TRPs in the current engine, and using vehicular mortars on static defense would, I think, be relatively rare, as they were assigned to tank divisions, which tend to have more dynamic missions. Still, it's a possibiliity. Have fun.

Michael

[Beta1]

On boards are great for rapid accurate fire. When advancing on a enemy position I will normally use larger off board fire for a minute or so then switch to on board 3" if possible before contact this way I can really wallop the stronghold (say with a 4.5" or 5.5" spotter) then by switching to the on board 3" with its enormous ammo load I can make sure the barrage comes down on the foxholes suppressing the defenders while I advance without fear of a off board round dropping short and hitting my own guys. Essentially its a way of allowing me to get closer to my own barrage.

They are also useful at the begginning of a artillery attack.

Near the end of a recent game ( about 6 turns to go) my opponent threw 2 platoons of troops onto a flag that I had lightly defended. I knew I couldnt hold it so withdrew ahead of his advance and targeted my remaining 4.2" and 4.5" off boards onto the area. But these take a couple of minutes to arrive so in the mean time my 4 on board 3" (+ some spare 2") could fire with no delay. They suppressed both platoons preventing them moving away from the flag or dispersing. The first artillery arrived 90secs later followed by the 4.5 120 secs in and 2 minutes after that the whole group was routed with about 10-15 survivors.

Without the on boards he could have advanced past the flag and prevented my artillery having as much effect.