Is anybody going to do anything about the German gun data @30 degrees and Soviet @0 ?

[Redwolf]

I'm a little puzzled about the lack of attention to this detail, but from what we have seen here...

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=63;t=001092

... it seems quite clear that accidentally the German gun penetration values have been taken from 30 degree penetration stats, and the Soviet ones from 0 degrees.

Is that a known issue and is it going to be addressed in a patch?

I'm still on the fence of buying, but this detail looks very unpromising, in combination with nobody noticing or caring. (That, and randomly rotating AFVs in the demo scare me off, too.)

I should mention I own almost all BFC games, so this isn't a cheap "I'm a potential customer, down to your knees" shot. If the above data has really been fatfingered as it looks it is, a correction would go quite a way to confirm that ToW takes realism seriously.

[Dr.Jones]

Hi,

personaly I would recommend you this game, albeit this game has some stability problem, but hey even in first Half Life you could not play multiplayer normaly without freezes (or just see ARMA now), same with this game, just wait for first patch.

Not really this game is very realistic (ok, comparing to all other games I mean, even ARMA isnt so realistic and is used in Army as simulators), so If you want some user's rewiew, mine is thumbs up.

br.

Dr.Jones

[Kharnvor]

From what I gathered reading that thread, the penetration values are listed, for reference purposes only, as they were given in the various sources. German guns were typically listed with penetration values vs. armor sloped at 30 degrees, where Soviet values are for unsloped armor.

For the actual calculations in the game, all penetration values are coded for 0 degrees (meaning the Soviet penetrations are right on, while the German in-game behind-the-scenes values are actually higher than the player sees). The impact angle is then calculated and all that other fun stuff to arrive at the end result.

Let's say the Germans and the Soviets each bought a 45mm AT gun from some neutral country which also supplied the ammunition. In the game, the penetration values listed for the gun would be, ON PAPER, lower than the Soviet values, because the Germans tested it versus 30-degree armor instead of 0 degree armor. However, when used in the game, they will both be equally powerful.

That is my take on the discussion from that thread. The encyclopedia does not match the in-game stats necessarily because Battlefront did not edit the encyclopedia for accuracy like they did the game data. The game data used for penetration calculations might not match the numbers displayed because of the different ways the various countries reported their results, but the actual performance should be accurate.

Of course, if your concern is not so much how they work in game, but rather the fact that the gun data is not consistently reported between various countries, then ignore all that above. That might be a very easy mod to convert the numbers displayed so both sides show penetrations at either 0 degrees or 30 degrees or some other angle you like.

I don't think it's a case of nobody noticing or caring, but rather knowing that the numbers they provide are accurate according to their sources, so not needing attention. The randomly rotating AFVs is a whole other issue, however.

[Pas De Charge]

"All penetration values are counted in one system. All penetration angles are 0 degrees when it’s counted. " That seems to me to be the most important piece of information from the thread you linked.

I have to say, I've read a few posts from you concerning the accuracy of the gun data in the game and I'm getting bored. You seem to be searching for the SMALLEST reason not to buy the game.

'I.ve checked the tables and it looks like the penetration of the 7.92 only goes as far as Ivans liver, this is SO ridiculous, it should at least hit his spine. Im appalled at the attention to detail yet am amazed at the amount of time I've spent researching this apperent lack of detail'

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Kharnvor:

For the actual calculations in the game, all penetration values are coded for 0 degrees (meaning the Soviet penetrations are right on, while the German in-game behind-the-scenes values are actually higher than the player sees). [...]

Let's say the Germans and the Soviets each bought a 45mm AT gun from some neutral country which also supplied the ammunition. In the game, the penetration values listed for the gun would be, ON PAPER, lower than the Soviet values, because the Germans tested it versus 30-degree armor instead of 0 degree armor. However, when used in the game, they will both be equally powerful.

I don't buy that, sorry. I don't think that the game engine has a second, separate database in addition to the data displayed for combat computations. That doesn't make any sense economically, game developers don't have the time to do the same thing twice.

Now, I see a remote possibility that the combat calculations are all formula driven (as all or most of the CM penetration is), but still - if they have an accurate formula, why bothers entering a set of penetration stats by hand for human display? If the formula is accurate enough you can just display the formula results (as CM does). If the formula is not accurate enough, why not use the hand edited data? Doesn't make sense economically either.

I might mistake your identity and underestimate your authority on these matters, you are not one of the developers, are you?

[Pas De Charge]

"I might mistake your identity and underestimate your authority on these matters, you are not one of the developers, are you? "

Ahem, once again ""All penetration values are counted in one system. All penetration angles are 0 degrees when it’s counted." - from Soan

[Mastiff]

Originally posted by Redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kharnvor:

For the actual calculations in the game, all penetration values are coded for 0 degrees (meaning the Soviet penetrations are right on, while the German in-game behind-the-scenes values are actually higher than the player sees). [...]

Let's say the Germans and the Soviets each bought a 45mm AT gun from some neutral country which also supplied the ammunition. In the game, the penetration values listed for the gun would be, ON PAPER, lower than the Soviet values, because the Germans tested it versus 30-degree armor instead of 0 degree armor. However, when used in the game, they will both be equally powerful.

I don't buy that, sorry. I don't think that the game engine has a second, separate database in addition to the data displayed for combat computations. That doesn't make any sense economically, game developers don't have the time to do the same thing twice.

Now, I see a remote possibility that the combat calculations are all formula driven (as all or most of the CM penetration is), but still - if they have an accurate formula, why bothers entering a set of penetration stats by hand for human display? If the formula is accurate enough you can just display the formula results (as CM does). If the formula is not accurate enough, why not use the hand edited data? Doesn't make sense economically either.

I might mistake your identity and underestimate your authority on these matters, you are not one of the developers, are you? </font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Pas De Charge:

"I might mistake your identity and underestimate your authority on these matters, you are not one of the developers, are you? "

Ahem, once again ""All penetration values are counted in one system. All penetration angles are 0 degrees when it’s counted." - from Soan

Ok, so "one system", not 2 or 3 databases/formulas.

Then why is the data displayed for the Germans at 30 degrees and is displayed at 0 degrees for the Soviets?

Also, the penetration as displayed matches the usual reports of historical penetration tests so closely that it seems certain that they have been entered from those test's records. That pretty much rules out that there is a formula behind the displayed values.

[Skunker]

Relax, there's nothing bogus in-game. Those of us that have played know that the values are correct, otherwise my PaKs would be useless .

[Redwolf]

Says a one-post junior member . No offense, but what I have seen as explanations here is not exactly the same thing as John D. Salt coming in and assuring me everything is all right. It also doesn't help that half of you assume me that there are multiple data sources and the other half says there is one. It's unlikely that all of you are correct

Anyway, I think what we need here is a little better communications between 1C and the English speaking community. There have been some tough questions here (and by no means I'm the only one poking) that can only be answered by 1C. Even BFC doesn't have the definite insight required. But what we have seen from 1C suffers from a serious language barrier and generally very slow communications. This is bad since for example in the armor plate angle discussion it turns out that 1C is actually doing the right thing. And went through great trouble doing the right thing, except then nobody knows about it or believes it due to communication breakdown.

There must be somebody on this forum who is comfortable in both Russian and English to help us out a little.

[Smoke]

I believe that Rune covered this in some detail. You may want to do a search for his recent input. What you're being told here is correct... the encyclopedia is less accurate than actual game calculations.

[SoaN]

As I have sad already in that thread: All penetration values are counted in one system. All penetration angles are 0 degrees when it’s counted.

[nonickch]

I don't buy that, sorry. I don't think that the game engine has a second, separate database in addition to the data displayed for combat computations. That doesn't make any sense economically, game developers don't have the time to do the same thing twice.

There are oh-so-many reasons not to have a single source on the values for both the encyclopedia and the actual game.

There are quite a few to do have them in a single source too.

It's all a design choice OR a lack of cover for a certain feature (i.e. the encyclopedia) at design time. I wouldn't redesign the game just because someone told me to add an encyclopedia.

Look at it this way, the encyclopedia is probably something so simplistic as an html page, the game is a monster of modelling and objects flying out of someones arse.

Why would you want load the world just to pull off some numbers off for visual representation?

Have you seen how long it takes to load a map?

Now, it IS quite "embarassing" if the case is that the encyclopedia has different values.

Call it an oopsie, I call it the dev team snubbing the the doc/support team (Who most likely run the encyclopedia module)

Such small miscommunications are quite frequent, but thankfully in this case it's something simple, and I bet (if it is indeed mistaken) it will be fixed in the first patch.

Redwolf: Ah yes, the language barrier.

Yes there definitely seems to be one over here, but I am not surprised.

I'd say that I've noticed that russian communities have a much larger language barrier than the french ones, but some people would call me racist, so I won't

[Moon]

nonickch is right. The Encyclopedia is nothing but a bunch of in-game text that is totally separate from game code. It's better that way, too, since the text shown needs to be localized into various languages and it would not be wise to give each localization team access to some source code that the game is using to calculate actualy game effects.

Therefore, differences between in-game data and encyclopedia are possible and almost expected, by pure mistake, typos etc. but also by design to some extent because often the game-data is much more complex than what can be shown in something like the encyclopedia. We used the exact same approach for the Combat Mission games.

Martin