75mm L48 penetration is kinda off

[sargemy]

Hey guys,

I was just playing ToW and then CMAK and CMBB.

I had to check this. In ToW, the 75mm L48 kwk cannon used by the Panzer IVH or Jadpanzer IV or Stug series (late) has an point blank penetration of 90 something mm using APCBC. While in CMAK and CMBB, even the 30 degrees penetration at 100m is above 120 mm. Is this way off? I've checked out of curiosity on the Hummels 150mm HEAT round and IS2s 122mm gun. They seems to be pretty much in line.

just and observation,

thanks,

Mike

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Are you sure? I thought it was way higher than 90-- well over 100.

[Bioseed]

This weapon actually has slightly different numbers in CMBB than it does in CMAK, and here again they are different, and somewhat profoundly. I can't tell if this is just an encyclopedia typo or something bigger, but the numbers listed for the Pzgr39 do seem odd.

[rune]

I posted this in other threads.

Kettenhund,

What are you looking at? The encyclopedia? How many times do I have to say the internal numbers are correct within 1 mm of several authors. I had authors review the penetration numbers that went into the game. I do NOT know what values and angles were used in the encyclopedia.

The figures match Bird and Livingston, jentz, and others.

Rune

PS. I also do not know the type of armor shot against in the encyclopedia.

[molo]

Maybe the next patch should disable the encyclopedia's data!

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by sargemy:

Hey guys,

I was just playing ToW and then CMAK and CMBB.

I had to check this. In ToW, the 75mm L48 kwk cannon used by the Panzer IVH or Jadpanzer IV or Stug series (late) has an point blank penetration of 90 something mm using APCBC. While in CMAK and CMBB, even the 30 degrees penetration at 100m is above 120 mm. Is this way off? I've checked out of curiosity on the Hummels 150mm HEAT round and IS2s 122mm gun. They seems to be pretty much in line.

just and observation,

thanks,

Mike

CMx1 data at 100m 30 degrees, AP:

75mm L/43 L/46 L/48

CMAK 109_ 119_ 111

CMBB 100_ 109_ 101

I'll look up Lorrin's data at home.

The L/43 is on the Panzer IV and some StuGs, the L/48 on other StuGs, Jagdpanzer IV and latest Pz IVs. The L/46 is towed and on the Marders with German guns.

[Cincinatvs]

Originally posted by rune:

I posted this in other threads.

Kettenhund,

What are you looking at? The encyclopedia? How many times do I have to say the internal numbers are correct within 1 mm of several authors. I had authors review the penetration numbers that went into the game. I do NOT know what values and angles were used in the encyclopedia.

The figures match Bird and Livingston, jentz, and others.

Rune

For German it looks like they took 30° angle penetration as the ones given for the Kwk.42 L70 75mm are close to those given in "Panther Tank" by T.L.Jentz (Schiffer Military history book) for the Psgr.39/42:

Range 100m 500m 1000m 1500m 2000m

Perf 138mm 124mm 111mm 99mm 89mm

[wokelly]

I have to agree, it looks like the German penetration values are at 30 degrees while the allies are at 0 degrees.

[Redwolf]

The demo doesn't load the Allied missions for me. Can somebody post a couple Allied gun penetration numbers?

[Redwolf]

Bump.

Can somebody post a couple Soviet and American gun penetration values?

I didn't buy the game yet and for the Demo the training sessions don't load for me - so I have no Allied data.

[Bioseed]

Originally posted by Redwolf:

Bump.

Can somebody post a couple Soviet and American gun penetration values?

I didn't buy the game yet and for the Demo the training sessions don't load for me - so I have no Allied data.

75mm M61 89 80 70 (100m, 500m 1000m)

76mm M62A1 117 107 97

76mm UBR-354A 80 70 63

85mm UBR-365 119 105 100

[Redwolf]

Thanks.

So for the Axis the penetration is even less than what the available literature says for 30 degrees.

For the Americans it is between 0 and 30 degrees.

For the Soviets it is for 0 degrees.

[Jippo]

Numbers in the encyclopedia are not the numbers used in penetration calculations.

-jippo

[SoaN]

All penetration values are counted in one system. All penetration angles are 0 degrees when it’s counted.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Jippo:

Numbers in the encyclopedia are not the numbers used in penetration calculations.

Excuse me?

The numbers displayed with the unit data during gameplay are the same ones as in the encyclopedia, right? Why are they not used in penetration calculations? What is used in penetration calculation, then?

Is there any explanation why the unit data displayed is taking historical values for 30 degree impact angle for the Germans and 0 degree for Soviet guns (and something like 15 degrees for Americans)?

[Jeff Duquette]

Just fiddling about on my lunch hour. Attached is a comparison of perforation data for 75mm M61 APC and 3-inch M62A1 APC. The blue curves are based upon V50 limit velocities determined by the US Army Ballistics Labratory from firing trials – projectile just passing completely through the plate 50% of the time (better known as the Naval Ballistic Limit). No remaining velocity after passage. Obliquity is zero-degrees.

The red curves are based upon the numbers posted by Bioseed (see his above posting) for ToW. I’m away from my copy of the game, so I can’t verify that the numbers posted by Bioseed’s are free from errors. I don’t know what penetration criteria had been assumed in the ToW design. Presumably BL(N).

[ May 08, 2007, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Duquette ]

[Redwolf]

Can somebody post a couple more Soviet penetration values? Demo's training missions still won't do for me.

[Bioseed]

Originally posted by Redwolf:

Can somebody post a couple more Soviet penetration values? Demo's training missions still won't do for me.

The demo missions never will do it, anyway for whatever its worth:

122mm VBR-471 167 152 142 133 122

100mm UBR-412 171 155 135 115 100

152mm VBR-546 133 125 115 105 90

[Jeff Duquette]

Originally posted by Bioseed:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Redwolf:

Can somebody post a couple more Soviet penetration values? Demo's training missions still won't do for me.

The demo missions never will do it, anyway for whatever its worth:

122mm VBR-471 167 152 142 133 122

100mm UBR-412 171 155 135 115 100

152mm VBR-546 133 125 115 105 90 </font>

[Redwolf]

Yes, except the German data is at 30 degrees.

This might be by design, but to be honest it looks more like an error.

[ May 09, 2007, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Redwolf ]

[Jeff Duquette]

Yup. The German penetration data looks like 30-degrees data (or 60-degree relative to the German method for indicating obliquity).

I also noticed that the game info screen doesn't show anything in the way of penetration for Hollow charge ammo -- at least it’s missing from the info screen for a number of German tanks.

I have the full blown game. I haven’t noticed German AP being particularly impotent. But I would be interested to hear if this was an oversight.

[Bioseed]

Hollow charge penetration is listed in the text above the empty penetration graph.

[SlapHappy]

HEAT ammo uses a single variable called "cumulative penetration" and it is not listed on the table.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Bioseed:

This weapon actually has slightly different numbers in CMBB than it does in CMAK, and here again they are different, and somewhat profoundly.

The differences between CMBB and CMAK are due to the typical type of armour you would face (homegeous vs face harden, and how brittle the armour was) on the different fronts. These affect the different types of ammo penetrations abilities, and thus the penetration chart example was change to better reflect this.