Human fodder for the omnipotent AI.

[BillyBob]

The more I play this game the more one salient point becomes clear (and explains most of what's wrong with it)...the computer AI is omnipotent. It spots, fires and destroys with flawless accuracy. No matter what the human player does, no matter how cunning or clever or sneaky he is, the computer AI knows exactly what, where, when and how you're doing it. Meanwhile the human's assets couldn't find their own arse with both hands and a map.

So the gameplay becomes nothing more than an excercise in frustration. Skill is rewarded with a cheap slap in the face.

Suggestion: reduce the AI ability by about...oh, I don't know...75%? And you might save this game from total disrepute.

[ April 28, 2007, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: BillyBob ]

[BFCElvis]

BillyBob, what skill level are you playing the game on?

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Elvis:

BillyBob, what skill level are you playing the game on?

Max, on the basis that reducing the level introduces worse anomolies than an overwhelmingly omnipotent AI opponent. Like opposing troops standing feet from each other and doing nothing but admire the scenery.

[BFCElvis]

My advise would be to play at the lower levels until get a real feel for the game. It really made the game easier to get an overall feel for because the first couple/few weeks there were times it felt overwhelming. Once it was more managable I had a better understanding for what was going on. For instance, your comments about St.Lo...I'm not saying this is what happened since I wasn't there while you were playing but...The battle the American tanks for the most part are tank destroyers and 79mm Shermans. It is possible your units had not spotted some of these and they were able to get the shots off. I have never ever never ever ever seen anything shoot through hills. The American tanks enter on a hill opposite the German guns and have a pretty good LOS to a gap between the 2 gun hills and the gun hill on the German left is a lower hill than the one the Americans are on. But it is possible for you to be spotted by the Americans before you spot them depending on the various levels of the troops manning you tanks. If you saw on tank destroyer you only saw 20% of the armor on that enemy hill.

I guess I'm really addressing you post in this thread and in another. Two for one!! But try the lower levels for a while.

[BillyBob]

I'll try St-Lo on a lower setting then, and see what happens.

[BFCElvis]

Also, if you feel the spotting and targeting on high is too high for enemy units then you are able to adjust it without a patch or rewrting code. Because that is exactly what the skill levels change.

[Destraex]

but Elvis, what level makes the trees and brush not see through.

WHat is a normal setting and how do you prevent later veterans in campaign from becoming mutants with LOS xray vision?

[BFCElvis]

Destraex, it sounds like you have the beta only space lobster version. Please exchange at once.

Just kidding.

But to answer your question as best I can, if you are sitting anywhere beside an urban setting and have a window look out of it now. Tell you what I see. I live in a rural town in the mountains with plenty of trees. There is a good sized road that runs near my house about 400m or maybe a little more away. If I look directly tomy left through the trees and brush I can see clearly see every car that drives by. There are 16 trees I can count in the narrow field of vision I am using as an example. If I were a Firefly I would have no problem spotting a Tiger driving down that road. I would be able able to shoot at it but I would expect with reduced hitting ability. If you look at these maps you see invidual trees and bushes so the example is a good one. I think what you (and others) might be expecting are dense woods like the ones modeled in the CM series. If they should or shouldn't have modeled pathches of woods similar to CM is another issue althogether. The point is consider each tree as a single tree not as representation of many more trees. So when you ask at what level you can't see through atree the answer is no level. You cannot hide a tank behind a tree or even 10 trees unless they were to be aligned in an unrealistic way.

[BillyBob]

Just totally beggars belief.

Put St-Lo on novice setting. Bunch of Shermans come the same way eventually, up the hill on the right flank. I send a MkIV and a Panther around and bounce the Shermans on their left flank. One Sherman goes down, followed by my MkIV. Then the Panther is sitting facing three Shermans, about 100m between them, while the Shermans pound the un-damaged Panther repeatedly and I'm screaming at the Panther to return fire (crew were fine, no wounds etc). It didn't fire a single shot in return, and eventually had it's turret trashed.

You can't play a game like this, you simply can't. It's trash. Panther just sitting there, taking round after round from three Shermans in plain sight just 100m away and doing nothing, not even taking aim. Me hitting the fire button, no messages coming up, nada.

And all at 6fps.

Meanwhile, elsewhere, I've got two Nashorns both firing and taking fire through multiple tree canopies. There's no way in hell either lots of crews could see each other. It makes a total mockery of cover and concealment.

I'm done with this farce so far as offline play is concerned. I can understand console-bashing kids getting some measure of entertainment out of it, for the eye-candy alone, but seasoned PC grognards?

When a game reduces a player to a screaming rage it's time to put it down and walk away. I'll give the MP a go, whenever somebody at 1C/BF deigns to fix what should have been working in the first place.

[Destraex]

thanks Elvis.

The examples I am talking about however are when I have multiple trees and shrubs blocking a tanks vision all the way (perhaps 300m) up to the target lone infantryman who can be seen even though he is directly behind a massive thick bush\hedge much like you probably have as hedges on some lawns in your street.

I have fraps up so will try to catch a few examples for you.

If it turns out thier is not enough cover for infantry then this will be a real shame, and as you say perhaps it should be added or having infantry even with a lone tank around is useless.

[spec124]

You know, spotting tanks through trees is one thing if they're moving, spotting infantry is another. MY men, no matter how many trees are between them and the enemy are always spotted and shot. I click on my men and ALWAYS get the smae message - no matter WHO I click on: "Don't have LOS." I would assume that my infantry are not wearing orange hunting jackets and running screaming through the trees to be seen by every enemy soldier to pick them off. But I guess I would assume wrong. How on earth do I bring a bazooka to bear on enemy armor? I can't sneak up on it. There's no where to hide. I suppose if I hid next to a building and waited for the off chance that the armor would pass right by me I could get a shot off. Of course the moment the armor came into view he would see me and shoot me before I got a shot off. If something amazing is going on in the game with some kind of crazy realism the rpoblem is the player has no idea what is happening. Why can this guy see and this guy can't? Am I covered or am I not? Is grass cover or just for show? How bout this rock? I had three guys taking shots at one enemy soldier... well, sort of. It seemed that while he was able to take cover behind a tree (maybe, who the hell knows), my men were too stupid to take cover and shoot. He picked each one off while standing next to a tree. Okay, maybe he's a mean shot, but let's get real; the enemy force can't all be made up of the best soldiers! While there is a bit of fun in this game it needs some serious overhauling. What's this I understand??? No 88's?? You've got to be kidding!!!!!? How long has this game been in production? And I can't beleive the things that are missing. Waypoints? Hello?

Sorry - I'm not even impressed with the graphics - while it's cool to zoom in to a fully 3d world on such a large scale it's a bit lackluster as far as effects go. And maybe they're not such a big deal to some but it is kinda fullfilling to blow crap up. I don't get the impression that anything is blowing up. Just some patches of smoke. It's a bit disappointing. No craters, no foxholes, no concealment (ok - some have claimed it's there, how would anyone know?). I'm still playin', but it's tough to make sense of what can't be made sense of.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by spec124:

You know, spotting tanks through trees is one thing if they're moving, spotting infantry is another. MY men, no matter how many trees are between them and the enemy are always spotted and shot. I click on my men and ALWAYS get the smae message - no matter WHO I click on: "Don't have LOS." I would assume that my infantry are not wearing orange hunting jackets and running screaming through the trees to be seen by every enemy soldier to pick them off. But I guess I would assume wrong. How on earth do I bring a bazooka to bear on enemy armor? I can't sneak up on it. There's no where to hide. I suppose if I hid next to a building and waited for the off chance that the armor would pass right by me I could get a shot off. Of course the moment the armor came into view he would see me and shoot me before I got a shot off. If something amazing is going on in the game with some kind of crazy realism the rpoblem is the player has no idea what is happening. Why can this guy see and this guy can't? Am I covered or am I not? Is grass cover or just for show? How bout this rock? I had three guys taking shots at one enemy soldier... well, sort of. It seemed that while he was able to take cover behind a tree (maybe, who the hell knows), my men were too stupid to take cover and shoot. He picked each one off while standing next to a tree. Okay, maybe he's a mean shot, but let's get real; the enemy force can't all be made up of the best soldiers! While there is a bit of fun in this game it needs some serious overhauling. What's this I understand??? No 88's?? You've got to be kidding!!!!!? How long has this game been in production? And I can't beleive the things that are missing. Waypoints? Hello?

Sorry - I'm not even impressed with the graphics - while it's cool to zoom in to a fully 3d world on such a large scale it's a bit lackluster as far as effects go. And maybe they're not such a big deal to some but it is kinda fullfilling to blow crap up. I don't get the impression that anything is blowing up. Just some patches of smoke. It's a bit disappointing. No craters, no foxholes, no concealment (ok - some have claimed it's there, how would anyone know?). I'm still playin', but it's tough to make sense of what can't be made sense of.

Apparently it's all down to a highly sophisticated system that we're just too dumb to appreciate.

http://battlefront.com/index.htm

According to this system ambushes just weren't possible in real life, and never happened.

Go figure.

[HardRock]

Originally posted by Elvis:

Destraex, it sounds like you have the beta only space lobster version. Please exchange at once.

Just kidding.

But to answer your question as best I can, if you are sitting anywhere beside an urban setting and have a window look out of it now. Tell you what I see. I live in a rural town in the mountains with plenty of trees. There is a good sized road that runs near my house about 400m or maybe a little more away. If I look directly tomy left through the trees and brush I can see clearly see every car that drives by. There are 16 trees I can count in the narrow field of vision I am using as an example. If I were a Firefly I would have no problem spotting a Tiger driving down that road. I would be able able to shoot at it but I would expect with reduced hitting ability. If you look at these maps you see invidual trees and bushes so the example is a good one. I think what you (and others) might be expecting are dense woods like the ones modeled in the CM series. If they should or shouldn't have modeled pathches of woods similar to CM is another issue althogether. The point is consider each tree as a single tree not as representation of many more trees. So when you ask at what level you can't see through atree the answer is no level. You cannot hide a tank behind a tree or even 10 trees unless they were to be aligned in an unrealistic way.

LOL. You need to copy and paste this on every LOS trees complaint.

The only wargames I've played where you can't shoot through trees is a dense forest when the opponents are on opposite sides of it.

There are no dense forest here folks. You can see through tress and bushes.

But hide your tank behind a bush.I'll see it.Might make spotting from the air a little more difficult;)

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by HardRock:

But hide your tank behind a bush.I'll see it.Might make spotting from the air a little more difficult;)

How about we assume, quite reasonably, that hiding a tank behind bushes (in ambush) pre-supposes that the crew have gone to the trouble of camoflaging it so that it couldn't be seen?

Not happening, is it. AI can spot anything, from one side of the map to the other. Relentlessly. Then kill it.

Might as well be playing on a snooker-table for all the good the terrain features are doing as regards cover & concealment.

Will they fix this game-wrecking flaw? Will they hell.

[SlapHappy]

I agree with about half of these complaints. Trying to hide a Tiger tank will require more than just a few scattered trees.

However, the problem with infantry being so easily spotted (especially by tanks) is silly especially when you consider they would be (should be) actively trying not to be seen. Also, the different spotting capabilities of open-top halftracks and tanks should be highly disparate, especially against infantry. From what I have seen, this is not the case.

In one case I had a lone infantryman crawling behind some buildings at least 400 meters behind some tanks. The tank dutifully turned and snipered the guy as if the crewmen were comprised of Peter Parkers and their Spidey-sense was tingling. Yes, some of the combat results are just ludicrous. BTW, my infantryman was not firing on the tanks. He was actively trying to hide from them. Just not believable.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

However, the problem with infantry being so easily spotted (especially by tanks) is silly especially when you consider they would be (should be) actively trying not to be seen. Also, the different spotting capabilities of open-top halftracks and tanks should be highly disparate, especially against infantry. From what I have seen, this is not the case.

In one case I had a lone infantryman crawling behind some buildings at least 400 meters behind some tanks. The tank dutifully turned and snipered the guy as if the crewmen were comprised of Peter Parkers and their Spidey-sense was tingling. Yes, some of the combat results are just ludicrous. BTW, my infantryman was not firing on the tanks. He was actively trying to hide from them. Just not believable.

Straight-A!

[whaco]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

Just not believable.

It has been stated from a number of peeps that this game is the best realistic game out there as far as RTS goes. I am not seeing that TBH. Too many unbelieveable, unrealistic moments that become quite frustrating while playing. My kids enjoy it though, so that is a bonus.

[HardRock]

Originally posted by BillyBob:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HardRock:

But hide your tank behind a bush.I'll see it.Might make spotting from the air a little more difficult;)

How about we assume, quite reasonably, that hiding a tank behind bushes (in ambush) pre-supposes that the crew have gone to the trouble of camoflaging it so that it couldn't be seen?

Not happening, is it. AI can spot anything, from one side of the map to the other. Relentlessly. Then kill it.

Might as well be playing on a snooker-table for all the good the terrain features are doing as regards cover & concealment.

Will they fix this game-wrecking flaw? Will they hell. </font>

[Chazman]

"You can't hide a tank behind a tree or even group of trees from ground fire. You can help to disguise it from air attack"

Can't hide a tank behind a group of trees?

What are you smoking, ever heard of the Bocage in Normandy?

How about the infantry, can't they hide behind tree either, cause they get spotted and mowed down just as fast!

[Tripps]

Originally posted by HardRock:

Do you see Shermans hiding in the day with brush on them?

Reminds me of:

Know why Elephants paint their toenails red?

So they can hide in Cherry trees.

Ever see a Elephant in a cherry tree?

Works huh?

So no, i didnt see any Shermans today, but maybe thats because they were well hid!

[JG53_Jaguar]

Originally posted by BillyBob:

Just totally beggars belief.

Put St-Lo on novice setting. Bunch of Shermans come the same way eventually, up the hill on the right flank. I send a MkIV and a Panther around and bounce the Shermans on their left flank. One Sherman goes down, followed by my MkIV. Then the Panther is sitting facing three Shermans, about 100m between them, while the Shermans pound the un-damaged Panther repeatedly and I'm screaming at the Panther to return fire (crew were fine, no wounds etc). It didn't fire a single shot in return, and eventually had it's turret trashed.

You can't play a game like this, you simply can't. It's trash. Panther just sitting there, taking round after round from three Shermans in plain sight just 100m away and doing nothing, not even taking aim. Me hitting the fire button, no messages coming up, nada.

And all at 6fps.

Meanwhile, elsewhere, I've got two Nashorns both firing and taking fire through multiple tree canopies. There's no way in hell either lots of crews could see each other. It makes a total mockery of cover and concealment.

I'm done with this farce so far as offline play is concerned. I can understand console-bashing kids getting some measure of entertainment out of it, for the eye-candy alone, but seasoned PC grognards?

When a game reduces a player to a screaming rage it's time to put it down and walk away. I'll give the MP a go, whenever somebody at 1C/BF deigns to fix what should have been working in the first place.

I might be late...but don't waste time engaging enemy units with Mark IV or Panther from close range. German tanks have superior optics and gun...put them on the hill at long distance and let it rip I put my panther, 2 tigers and the nashorn on the top of the hill and Mark IVs and some stugs in the valleys. This was an easy mission...the tough missions are were you have to engage enemy tanks from close range.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by JG53_Jaguar:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BillyBob:

Just totally beggars belief.

Put St-Lo on novice setting. Bunch of Shermans come the same way eventually, up the hill on the right flank. I send a MkIV and a Panther around and bounce the Shermans on their left flank. One Sherman goes down, followed by my MkIV. Then the Panther is sitting facing three Shermans, about 100m between them, while the Shermans pound the un-damaged Panther repeatedly and I'm screaming at the Panther to return fire (crew were fine, no wounds etc). It didn't fire a single shot in return, and eventually had it's turret trashed.

You can't play a game like this, you simply can't. It's trash. Panther just sitting there, taking round after round from three Shermans in plain sight just 100m away and doing nothing, not even taking aim. Me hitting the fire button, no messages coming up, nada.

And all at 6fps.

Meanwhile, elsewhere, I've got two Nashorns both firing and taking fire through multiple tree canopies. There's no way in hell either lots of crews could see each other. It makes a total mockery of cover and concealment.

I'm done with this farce so far as offline play is concerned. I can understand console-bashing kids getting some measure of entertainment out of it, for the eye-candy alone, but seasoned PC grognards?

When a game reduces a player to a screaming rage it's time to put it down and walk away. I'll give the MP a go, whenever somebody at 1C/BF deigns to fix what should have been working in the first place.

I might be late...but don't waste time engaging enemy units with Mark IV or Panther from close range. German tanks have superior optics and gun...put them on the hill at long distance and let it rip I put my panther, 2 tigers and the nashorn on the top of the hill and Mark IVs and some stugs in the valleys. This was an easy mission...the tough missions are were you have to engage enemy tanks from close range. </font>

[Moon]

500m is point-blank, Billybob. There is nothing extreme about it.

Optics hardly make for a difference at such ranges. In fact, high-magnification optics are at a disadvantage due to a more narrow field of view.

Martin

[MikoyanPT]

I think i am seeing a pattern here.

Most of the people that are more ferociously criticising the gameplay, are in fact frustrated for not being able to beat the AI.

War is not easy, isn´t it. The AI is though to crack but is beatable, just have to have the patience to develop superior tactics.

But that my friends takes time.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Moon:

500m is point-blank, Billybob. There is nothing extreme about it.

Optics hardly make for a difference at such ranges. In fact, high-magnification optics are at a disadvantage due to a more narrow field of view.

Martin

Oh. Well, if 500m is point-blank why are my tanks a) unable to hit much and when they do why doesn't the round carve a T34/Sherman wide open?

Tiger vs T34 at 500m = one-shot kill, front, side or rear, any angle for side or rear and any reasonable angle on the glacis (otherwise you'd be going for the side shot and the T34 would be garaunteed dead regardless).

T34 vs Tiger at 500m = better pray, unless you're up the Tiger's arse.

I've watched two Tigers taken out by the British armoured cars (Daimler MkI), angled shots into the side. According to the encyclopedia the Daimler's 40mm cannon could penetrate 64mm of armor at 100m. The Tiger has over 80mm of side armor. Not to mention the quality of the alloy (best of any tank in the entire war, nickel-based with a Brinell rating of around 240 if my memory serves me correctly).

Sorry, not meaning to "bash" the game, or get "one up" on you, I'm just responding to you comments/opinions with comments/opinions of my own. Which is the basis of mature discussion I believe?