maniac_mat Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 How can my units see through almost 1000m of trees and brush? I put the camera to ground view and there is no way the tank would be able to engage through all those tress and shrubs, optics or not. that being said, i guess if they did block line of site, the tanks would be engaging at 100m or less. and that would be bad since my jagd tiger missed a 50m shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 There is a difference between your unit ENGAGING a target that it can partially spot and having complete blockage of LOS. If you ORDER your unit to fire on a unit that it has partial LOS...then it will. It may not (most likely not) hit the target, particularly if it is very far away. If your unit has partial LOS of a unit, it will not shoot at the target on its own. You have to order it to do so. AI will not shoot on its own unless it "believes" it has a good chance of hitting its target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac_mat Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 Im not talking about partial line of site. with how many trees and shrubs there are in the demo mission between my tank and thiers, there is no way they could even partially see the enemy, let alone shoot at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Who is doing the spotting? Not all units will see what the other units see. Tanks with optics and crew served weapons who have spotters will be able to see movement at distance through obstructions better than units without optics. It is possible. Besides, Seelow Heights is not THAT thick with shrubbery and trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac_mat Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 let me figure out how to post a screen and i will show you what im talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac_mat Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 this is what im talking about. The game says the tank has line of site to both of the enemy tanks, judging by the solid red circle. i can understand if the tank marked 1 can be seen. but what about the tank marked 2? regardless if other units can see it or not, this one can, and should not be able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cull Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I also noticed this, most obviously in the "LOS" tutorial in the demo . It wasn't "wow, can my guy really see him?", it was "there's no f-ing way my guy can see him". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 In your picture, from that vantage point, it looks like you should not be able see anything. I know it sounds like splitting hairs, but, technically, if you see only the barrel of a tank or just any part of a tank,...you have LOS. Would a tank commander or spotter be able to find the range? I seriously doubt it. However he KNOWS there is an enemy unit over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Yeah, I can see what you are getting at. It works (more or less) like this: A tree in the way doesn't so much block vision as that it degrades it. Thus the gunner can "see" through the tree even if you can't. For No.1 that seems okay, there's not that much in the way and the gunner seems to be looking over the brushes. For No.2 it does look more dubious, though I can't tell what's behind the first trees. If there is nothing behind those first 2-3 trees then I guess it's a bit off but not completely barmy. If there are a few other trees and stuff behind the others, yeah, that probably shouldn't be that way. Keep in mind though that spotting is also affected by the Scout skill. Someone with a high Scout skil will see through more concealment then someone with less. Sometimes this does lead to him effectively having x-ray vision. I fear that's pretty much the way the system works. In other words the multiple trees put a lot of negative modifiers to spotting (unlike houses and stuff, that block) so that the target should be counted as unobservable. If the positive modifier for Scouting is added though, the spotting calculations would allow this otherwise impossible shot. Effectively this is halfway between CMs abstract spotting rules and realistic 'what you see is what you get' spotting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac_mat Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 Originally posted by gunnersman: In your picture, from that vantage point, it looks like you should not be able see anything. I know it sounds like splitting hairs, but, technically, if you see only the barrel of a tank or just any part of a tank,...you have LOS. Would a tank commander or spotter be able to find the range? I seriously doubt it. However he KNOWS there is an enemy unit over there. i can understand whar you are saying for number 1. but for number 2 it is a different story. you cant tell me the tank spotter can see that tank that is 1000m away through all thsoe trees and shrubs on number 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 As usual, Elmar puts it more eloquently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac_mat Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 now i have to say, dont get me wrong, this isnt a game stopper or anything, i just think its a bit odd. and for me, its not really that big of a deal when it comes to tanks, but the infantry on the other hand seem useless when you cant conceal them with trees or shrubs, and other then that i haavent seen much of anything besides trees or shrubs besides the one toutorial with a few houses. most maps have them but thats not where the battles are going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Infantry is quite capable of hiding, it's just depends under what circumstances. In an open field in full view of the enemy...? Good luck! However, in a wheat field, lying down, holding fire and with a decent scouting bonus (scouting not only adds to spotting, it also adds a concealment bonus) then you won't see them until you are practically on top of them, especially in a tank not looking directly at them. Let's illustrate that with (imaginary) numbers. Say having -100 is near invisible, 0 is baseline +100 is standing on a soap box in the open with neon signs pointing you out. Now imagine we have this situation: Sniper in a wheat field, behind two trees and a shrub, lying down, not moving and holding fire, with a 57 scout skill. A soldier with 27 scout skill, 200 meters is looking in his direction. -30 for the wheatfield 2x-30 for the trees -20 for the shrub -20 for not moving -30 for lying down 0 for not shooting -20 for distance -57 for the snipers camouflage skill +27 for the spotting skill of the soldier + ----------------------------------------------- -210 That means the sniper is not going to get spotted until something changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Now an examble for a soldier asking for a Darwin Award. Running upright in the open we have a soldier with 35 scout skill, he fires his weapon too. 300m away stands a sentry with 65 scouting, nothing in between the two of them. +40 for running +20 for being upright 0 for being in the open -35 for the soldiers scouting skill +100 for shooting* -30 for distance +65 for the sentries scout skill 0 for not having obstacles in between + --------------------------------------------- +160 In other words, the sentry can develop a sudden, nasty eye infection and still spot the dude running. And since the soldier is so exposed the sentry will probably get a aiming bonus when shooting at the dumb fool, too. That is, to my understanding, how it works. In most cases it makes pretty good sense, but there are, as you have spotted, a few downsides to doing it this way. *yes, I realize you can't shoot and move at the same time, just illustrating all possible factors) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percopius Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 ...are you factoring in sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Though the shooting may be counted as such, I do not think a rustle amongst the grain is going to draw unwanted attention, nor (sadly) a tank engine at full throttle. Not 100% sure though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac_mat Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 thanks for the numbers but they are not needed, i never said i dont understand how spotting works, i just said i think its a bit odd that the LOS is not blocked realisticly by trees and shrubs in a game that is supposed to be more realistic. its not like its a hardcore realism feature, its a normal occurance for trees and shrubs to block line of sight. and dont take this as complaining, i think the game is awesome when the framerates are playable, its just more of an annoyance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Yeah, I got that you got it, but I thought this place was as good a place as any to illuminate the subject as much as possible. And I do indeed agree with you that the system can lead to stuff that really shouldn't be possible. I have those 'WTF?' moments too. Though I think you'll find that LOS calculations is harder then you (or I, look at me talking like I know stuff) might think. Even recent FPS typically don't have shrubs or grass block LOS. Many are the times I got spotted and subsequently shot by Nazis/Mutants/Aliens/what have you through some kind of flora. If they can't pull it off, what's developer of a game with more units and terrain going to do? As you know ...fake it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac_mat Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 yeah i see what your saying. thats the thing that i liked about World War 2 Online, if i wanted to, o could crawl my way into the town undetected becuz of the meany trees and shrubs, though it did take forever. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Actually it has an FPS feeling in it. I think smaller battles will be more fun with all these micro management and cover details. Soldier AI dooesnt seem to take account of the trees/brushes and manually hiding a whole company behind trees and brushes could be annoying. In cover or not your soldiers die very easily though. SMGs seem very accurate in ranges exceeding 150m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfiefang Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 My little bit. My riflemen killed plent smg close range as long as they where smart, and only my MG really owns med-long. I think the SMG does is job well of being scary, but not super deadly (haha, try to bunnyhop now SUCKERS) As for LOS... I don't know. I think tree's leaves (your picture) don't seem to count in LOS. That or somehow LOS curves like my golf swing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFCElvis Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 maniac_mat, look in the bottom left of your screen shot under the number 30. There is a message. If I am not mistaken what you are seeing could very well be a spot by sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeLaVega Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Has anyone played the german campaign mission "Battle at Seliger" yet? There you can really see that trees don`t effect LOS. After you placed your units, they directly begin firing at the enemy trench. In their line are at least 15 trees and whatever is growing there. This is really a pity, cause it limits the possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cincinatvs Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 In last Chance mission one Pak was abble to spot and hit my AFV through 6 trees, 4 brushes, one wall at 300m while it was rainning. Of course my AFV wasn't abble to fire back. :confused: It's starting to piss me off. I will get the mission editor to get ride of these F..king trees. :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac_mat Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 Originally posted by Elvis: maniac_mat, look in the bottom left of your screen shot under the number 30. There is a message. If I am not mistaken what you are seeing could very well be a spot by sound. that was from one that i clicked on before that, not the one the is currently clicked on. even if that wasnt the case, they need to decifer(sp) between sound contacts and visual contacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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