"Kill rings" on gun barrels...

[CoolColJ]

lol even AT guns had Kill rings - see the AT gun on the right with it's 3 rings

caption

German soldiers prized the T-34/85, immediately putting each captured tank to use. To avoid fire from own troops, “210” in the photograph is clearly marked with large red crosses. Note the barrel of the antitank gun to the right with the three "kill" rings.

heh, using captured tanks ..... further evidence fuel for that argument I guess :cool:

anyway that photo comes from this page - lots of nice photos I've never seen before. I just love the vibe they give off

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/ss_armor_redux.htm

which comes from this book I believe

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/ss_armor.htm

[Thomm]

Originally posted by CoolColJ:

Along with his crew, Wittmann inspects the 88 "Kill Rings" on the gun barrel of their Tiger I

Do you want to show me your kill rings or are you just happy to see me?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Grog Dorosh, are you now joining him in claiming that kill rings are exclusive to german tanks? only King Tigers, maybe?

I'm joining him in his desire to see some evidence that others used them. *shrug*

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Grog Dorosh, are you now joining him in claiming that kill rings are exclusive to german tanks? only King Tigers, maybe?

I'm joining him in his desire to see some evidence that others used them. *shrug* </font>

[Jussi Köhler]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

and keep digging...

Or keep dicking as my Danish colleague keeps saying...

[MikeyD]

For other nations, instead of kill rings I've seen the (rare) use of little tank and truck (or swastika) decals lined up on the hull sides of Russian and American vehicles to denote kills. Like aircraft kill markings. Probably applied more for moral or propaganda photo purposes than anything else. As the war went on and vehicle turn-over became so high, would a surviving crew bother the repaint kill markings on their 3rd or 4th vehicle? Plus if you get captured the enemy may tend to be less kindly to you if you've got a high kill record on display!

One thing I've been pondering about German armor barrel kill rings. Except for the outragious propagana photo above, could those rings serve another purpose? They seem most often to be one, two, or three rings. Are we sure they aren't a visiual identification feature to denote 1st, 2nd, 3rd platoon, etc? I heard of absolutely NOTHING to support my pet theory.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Grog Dorosh, are you now joining him in claiming that kill rings are exclusive to german tanks? only King Tigers, maybe?

I'm joining him in his desire to see some evidence that others used them. *shrug* </font>

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Grog Dorosh, are you now joining him in claiming that kill rings are exclusive to german tanks? only King Tigers, maybe?

I'm joining him in his desire to see some evidence that others used them. *shrug* </font>

[M Hofbauer]

oh just want to add, this is of no little importance, that in windycity's case the benefit of doubt still tells me he was (trying to be) humorous. please read the above with this in mind, forgot to put it all into conjunctive tense.

in your (M. Dorosh) case, however, that benefit cannot be applied, since you are rather clear in your POV.

[Vegeorite]

IIRC,there's a video in one of the Close Cambat games depicting some germans chalking a ring on a tank's main gun.

It seems to me that crews could then rub their barrels clean to avoid being caught with rings by the enemy.

If they happened to rub out an enemy during battle they then need have no fear of reprisals.

[RMC]

Originally posted by Vegeorite:

IIRC,there's a video in one of the Close Cambat games depicting some germans chalking a ring on a tank's main gun.

It seems to me that crews could then rub their barrels clean to avoid being caught with rings by the enemy.

If they happened to rub out an enemy during battle they then need have no fear of reprisals.

Yeah, but what if the enemy had a mobile CSI lab that could spray the barrel with a substance that would become luminous in the presence of chalk.....

[M Hofbauer]

then the captured crew would have to do a Steven Segal and free themselves then SHOOT THE WHOLE FRICKIN LOAD OF CSI BIATCHES....

I would even watch that specific episode.

Maybe even repeatedly.

[Thomm]

Why, I always found Jorja Fox hot with her no-nonsense attitude!

[CoolColJ]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

Do you want to show me your kill rings or are you just happy to see me?

ooo I'm happy to see you!

[WindyCity]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

all you're doing is joining him in his ignorance re. WW II and his denial, already RMC's and especially Kartboy's links posted above show them (in case you are unable or unwilling to look this up yfor ourself if you'e doubting this).

(you're now supposed to say "nyea, but ... but... RMC's pic is a restored vehicle, and while the wartime pics shown by Kartboy do show rings on the barrels, who is to say they dont show how often that vehicle won the StuG racing event?)

Dorosh, Dorosh... you're joining the wrong side here, and keep digging... [/QB]

You keep posting on how I am the wrong side, (what ever that means). But in return have a complete lack of any evidence kill-ring were used by “OTHER” nationalities other then Germany. You are basing your whole debate on a single photo link that I have yet gotten to work.

I am telling you, I have never seen any other nationalities use kill rings . Truth be told the Germans rarely used them.

One photo is by no means significant proof that “OTHER” nationalities indeed used them. Is it possible a stray tank did so for grins/photo , yes of course that is a possibility I will give you that. You personally have contributed ZERO evidence supporting your theory.

But please try to be at least a little realistic, and end the out right personal attacks.

[WindyCity]

Ok,

Did some research last night , the only reference I could find to “Kill Rings” is in …

Panzers A Revolution In Warfare, 1939-1945 ..by Roger Edwards

Seems that the habit of marking your barrel was picked up by Armor crews after seeing them on AA barrels, Seems that the marking a kill on ones barrel has no official endorsement, but was widely used by 88 crews, and first was seen in North Africa.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by WindyCity:

Ok,

Did some research last night , the only reference I could find to “Kill Rings” is in …

Panzers A Revolution In Warfare, 1939-1945 ..by Roger Edwards

Seems that the habit of marking your barrel was picked up by Armor crews after seeing them on AA barrels, Seems that the marking a kill on ones barrel has no official endorsement, but was widely used by 88 crews, and first was seen in North Africa.

I dont disagree, old news about them AA guns, its just that I fail to see what this has to do with the matter at hand. :confused:

Originally posted by WindyCity:

You keep posting on how I am the wrong side, (what ever that means).

the question was "I know the germans used kill rings, did any other nations do this as well?"

your answer was/is "NO" while my answer was that you are wrong, IOW, yes, at least the finns used them.

since "yes" is the right answer, you are on the wrong side of the issue.

clear now?

Furthermore, you were the one to put forward your (wrong) assertion that there is absolutely "NO" other nation using kill rings with no proof or even the slightest substantiation to your claim, which is the more unfortunate since you are wrong.

I am under no "burden of proof" as you might perceive, because I already had put forward a substantiation to my claim, i.e., I pointed out the finns/finnish vehicles, plus other kind souls have already supplied pictures and links, circumstantial evidence to my substantiation, so that any "burden of proof" or at least burden of substantiation of your claim would now be with you.

You, however, have only reacted with denial and ridicule to this.

...

However,

for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that this for the time will be my final contribution to this, uh, "generally degenerating place" to phrase it carefully, I will be bothered to do a cursory superficial google-check for you.

Please see the following not as hard proof (you can / probably will argue about any of the following as being doctored, falsified, wrong, out of context etc - they are, after all, only taken from the internet, and I am only too aware of its fallacies, but I am not an armor grog, I was going by memory of an old b/w picture of finnish armor with kill rings, and dont have finnish armor books, plus I cant be bothered to dig out the few armor books I do have, so you'll have to live with it (maybe some of the toothpicking finns around here can help you if you are still interested to learn more)), but take them as further indications, substantiations and circumstantial evidence, in the hopes that it will make you (maybe even M. Dorosh) an ever so slightly more knowledgeable person

first, take the links already provided by RMC

captured finnish T-34 supposedly authentically restored and apparently on display at <A HREF=http://www.panssarimuseo.fi/>the finnish armor museum</A>

and this StuG

<IMG SRC=http://www.panssarimuseo.fi/Pictures/museo02.jpg>

(I suggest youn take it up with the museum curator if they did such an outright misrepresentation of showing kill rings when finns never used them)

and kartboy's linked finnish StuG-IIIs from the <A HREF=http://www.wwiivehicles.com/index.htm> World War II Vehicles and Advanced Squad Leader</A> site

(apparently that site doesnt allow deeplinking so that, again, you will have to either direct-access those URLs in your browser, or view the pictuires from the respective site http://www.wwiivehicles.com/finland/photos.html, fourth and fifth picture down, but I am not sure since you were reluctant/unable to do so the first time, which is unfortunate really since the http://www.wwiivehicles.com/finland/foreign/stug_iii_02.jpg picture is the most compelling picture methinks - since you never heard about finnish armor kill rings I'll probably also have to point out to you that these flank hull logs are ever so typical for finnish StuGs)

this <A HREF=http://www.flamesofwar.com/Article.asp?ArticleID=1096>article by Alun Gallie </A> elaborates on "Finnish Armour - Colours and Markings during the mid war period" under "Unofficial Markings ", that

"The Finns did not make much use of unofficial markings on tanks during the midwar period. Occasionally a tank would bear a painted nickname or woman’s name on the turret or near the driver vision slot but these where normally quite small and unobtrusive. One notable exception was the T-26 of the 1st Battalion’s commander which proudly bore the nickname VIKU on the left hull side.

Later the Sturmi assault guns carried official nicknames and in the later period of the war the use of kill rings on barrels was seen."

the <A HREF=http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks>World of tanks</A> website under finnish armor has a bit about use of captured T-34s and in the describing text writes "Notice the picture far right. This photo shows the "kill" rings on the main gun." even tho that picure is either missing or he wrongly refers to the picture already supplied by RMC.

it also shows this -concededly arguable- finnish StuG pic

later on that same site it even shows kill rings on finnish AT guns,

<IMG SRC=http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/finland/50mm.jpg>

not sure if its a 5 cm or 7,5 cm PaK, but the camo is undoubtedly finnish, although this too is apparently a restored piece of equipment.

guess the finns didnt have too many cameras around back in WW II.

thats it for now folks.

live freely and embrace knowledge and your mistake or cuddle back into denial.

sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

[WindyCity]

You have got to be one of the biggest condescending forum members of all time. I am sorry if this debate has inconvenienced you .

I truly did believed that no other Nationalities ever adopted the marking of barrels to note their kill totals.

Again, sorry you felt the need to join a debate that in turn only disgusted you at my lack of total WWII knowledge.

PS: thanks anyway for the info, I stand corrected

[ October 06, 2006, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: WindyCity ]

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Finnish armour and ATG's did indeed at least occasionally sport such painted art, but I am unaware of when this fashion took off (seems like 1944) and just how widespread it really was. Among the reasons is that until summer '44, Finnish soldiers spent more time wrestling with bears than tickling T-34's with toothpicks.

Sorry to quote myself, but my post seems to have been ignored for some reason or another. Now, if all of you had believed my obviously enlightened opinion as Truth Spoken by God, we'd have avoided this disgrace of an argument.

So the moral of the story is, "always trust the Finn."

[Jussi Köhler]

Originally posted by Sergei:

So the moral of the story is, "always trust the Finn."

Yeah, always thrust The Finn!