Another LAV III rolls - is the Stryker just as bad?

[Peter Cairns]

MikeyD,

But like I said Mikey, you get airbags is SUV's and they don't go off when they are going cross country. As to the compressed air I think the amount used is tiny and pretty secure inside the unit, if an RPG comes through the side I think the equivelent of a palm sized aerosol adding to it is the last of your worries.

Lets face it if I had to choose between the hot plasma hittting an airbag or a javelin round I know what I would pick. Hell we could make it a lot safer in the troop compartment if we just got rid of all that live ammo in their.

Which is more dangerous in a confined space if it accidentally goes off, an airbag or a hand grenade.

Peter.

[MikeyD]

"But like I said Mikey, you get airbags is SUV's and they don't go off when they are going cross country."

Yeh, like any American SUV ever traveled cross country except in TV commerciels

As to airbag protection versus adding compressed air to an explosion event, I'd take a dislocated shoulder over burn trauma any day. But this might be a moot point. Airbags *might* use compressed nitrogen, which is inert.

[flamingknives]

Airbags use small explosive charges that generate lots of gas very quickly.

Probably not as much as you'd find a rifle cartridge.

[J Ruddy]

Airbags assume that your are strapped in to a specific location in the vehicle. You can't make this kind of assumption in a LAV compartment.

If you are leaning forward or to the side in your SUV when the front airbag deploys there is an increased chance of death by broken neck or decapitation by the airbag. You can't safely put airbags (as they exist now) inside an LAV.

I think for safety's sake, the focus should be on active stability for the LAV suspension system to help keep it from rolling so easily. Of course, IMHO, the whole high speed brick on wheels concept leaves a lot to be desired. I wonder if they could design a faster vehicle with a higher centre of gravity... Kind of like a Turbo Stryker AGS...

[Peter Cairns]

NO NO NO to Compressed Nitrogen...

Nitrogen is inert but it is also one of the biggest killers in the chemical indusrty . it's heavier than air, and if you breath in pure nitrogen, you die....

it's a quick clean death, but an absolutely certain one. The last thing you want in an enclosed space like an APC is lots and lots of nitrogen and very little air.

J Ruddy,

If SUV air bags did that in anything more than 1 in 10,000 cases or more, the law suits in the US would drive them off the road. People being regularly beheaded by airbags is an urban myth.

Peter.

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

People being regularly beheaded by airbags is an urban myth.

You're as bad as mD for putting words into my mouth. Children have been Decapitated by airbags. Note the link to being unrestrained and in the front seat.

You can't bury your head in the sand, in low speed accidents, these things do more damage than good.

The problem is that in North America, airbags are designed to work on unrestrained adults. This means the Airbag is required to expand faster and with a larger volume than the UK Airbags (Over double the volume). So if you want to protect unrestrained soldiers in the back of a LAV, you will need to use the US style high power bags. Unfortunately the high power airbags also carry a higher risk of injury.

Plus the airbags in your SUV are designed to protect in the case of a frontal collision. (Mama van side Curtains are designed with side impacts in mind) Neither of these are going to be much use if you are unrestrained and your vehicle rolls.

Have you been in a car when an airbag deploys? Fine white powder goes everywhere, you are momentarily blinded by it. The noise of the expansion is disorienting. It's almost like being flash-banged. Imagine the LAV is hit in the front with a 25mm round and the airbags deploy. There's nothing like a little extra help when you are trying to debus/deploy/dismount

So I stand by my comments. Unless someone shows me a system that would protect soldiers in a roll over that wouldn't go off at the wrong time, and wouldn't blind/disorient them I think this is a dead end.

Active suspension, lower center of G and wider track are the way to go.

[J Ruddy]

The killed soldier was in the Rear Sentry position, which is partially exposed (I think it is one of the rear hatches). I suspect this'd be like standing in your SUV with your upper torso out the sun roof. How the hell are you going to airbag that?

See below (courtesy of DND) for soldiers in the rear hatch position.

[ December 02, 2005, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: J Ruddy ]

[MikeyD]

I recall a Stryker was driven off a 30 foot cliff(!) out by the Syrian border 5-6 (15-16?) months ago - might've happened while deploying in darkness. The commander would've undoubtedly bought the farm if a fast-thinking soldier hadn't grabbed his legs and yanked him out of the hatch. As it was, I think he sustained a broken neck. Would driving off a 30 foot cliff be considered a roll-over?

[ December 02, 2005, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

NO NO NO to Compressed Nitrogen...

Nitrogen is inert but it is also one of the biggest killers in the chemical indusrty .

It is?

I used to use nitrogen every day to inflate aircraft tyres and service various shock absorbers on the same - no-one ever gave me any safety training other than that applicable to all high pressure gasses........unlike say Oxygen or acetylene!!

it's heavier than air, and if you breath in pure nitrogen, you die....

it's a quick clean death, but an absolutely certain one.

Again that's news to me.

You can be suffocated by the absence of oxygen, and it's a fairly slow death AFAIK - but that can happen from lots of things - CO2 fire extinguishers are a common source of suffocation.

And in het aviation industry I WAS warned about them in enclosed aircraft cabins, and alos the same dangers from their halon replacements.

The last thing you want in an enclosed space like an APC is lots and lots of nitrogen and very little air.

This is a piss-take right?? :confused:

We do understand that "air" is about 80% nitrogen?!! lol

[Peter Cairns]

Yes are is about 80% Nitrogen, and 17% oxygen, which you need to breath, it is picked up by the iron Fe+3 molocule in Hemogloben.

But , Take away the 17% and breath Nitrogen, and nothing happens, ie YOU DIE, quick and clean.

In Industrial accidents with Nitrogen leaks people have walled down flights of stairs and just fallen over in the Nitrogen rich lower level.

Next guy thinks he's fallen and knocked himself out, goes down to help and Bingo he's down too. It really is nasty stuff, because,

It's colourless oderless, and 99% of people also think that it's harmless. But it's not, it is an extremely dangerous gas that many people even in industries that should know better , like aviation, grossly underestimate.

Peter.

[Guest Mike]

No it's not extremely dangerous - what is dangerous is the absence of oxygen.

Suffocation can occur from many causes - displacement of O2 in the atmosphere is certainly one of them, and Nitrogen can cause that, but so can any number of substances.

this has been known for centuries - natural gasses in coal mines were explosive, but could also suffocate miners by the same mechanism and weer/are just as invisible and odourless - hence canaries!!

[SgtMuhammed]

Nitrogen is so inert that it was almost named lifeless. Yes it can be made to react but not by any mechanism present in the human lungs.

Like any gas that displaces O2 it can cause suffocation with the attendant symptoms (confusion, drowsiness, etc) but only in 100% concentration can it cause you to rapidly pass out. This is not a situation likely to occur in any combat vehicle under any concievable circumstances.

[ December 05, 2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: sgtgoody (esq) ]

[Peter Cairns]

No the point is you don't notice when you are being poisioned by nitrogen, it is quick and there are no obvious signs.

Many of the asphexiating gases are associated with cumbustion either complete CO2, or incomplete CO, as in mines where there is anone hazard.

The issue with nitrogen is that it is very difficult to detect and few think it is dangerous. This discussion is an example, I reacted the same way when I first came across it.

What Nitrogen?, hell thats not dangerous...

Just because it kills you by displacing oxygen as opposed to chemically like carbon monoxide, doesn't make you any less dead.

Peter,

[Little_Black_Devil]

I lost a good friend when his Bison rolled over on him in 1996.

He was riding in the crew commanders hatch on the way to rescue some Brits trapped in a minefield near Behac, Bosnia.

En-route, the driver had to swerve to avoid an accident with one of the locals and the Bison got a little too close to the side of the road where it apparently gave way and tumbled into a ravine.

Sufficed to say, the recent accident in Afghanistan was hauntingly familliar.

It would be interesting indeed if there actually is any data relating to the Styker's spaced armour slats and any effect they may have in preventing or minimizing a roll over.

I don't imagine they would do much, as they look kind of flimsy insofar as their ability to support any significant weight but you never know.

[Peter Cairns]

Of course the question this whole debate opens up is will you be able too, or indeed will Strykers be "rollable" in the game.

Two answers,

One, As they roll in real life, they should be rollable in the game,

and

Two, Once people know how and what will roll it, they will start designing Gamey" terrain to do it deliberately.

As far as I know you couldn't roll vehicles in any of the CM1 games, they just refused to go that far, which is one way to deal with the problem.

It all depends on just how frequently these things are rolling in terms of total hours in the field.

I suppose you could do a rough calculation of how many Strykers in Iraq, x how many hours running each per day, x how many days in theatre, / number of roll overs.

This would give you a very (very) rough rolls per hour, which you could compare with an average CM:SF game to get a chance of rollover per game.

On this basis I think a CM1 abort option of having them stop or reverse before tipping, would probably be most realistic, as the frequency of roll overs doesn't justify simulation in terms of either authenticity or programming time.

Thoughts please Steve!

Peter.

[MikeyD]

I recall all the squaking on the CMx1 boards when any attempts at convoy movements lead to traffic jams. Also in CMBB before the last(?) patch some fast-moving vehicles tended to overshoot corners if the angle was too sharp and had to self-plot multiple waypoints to get back on course again. And now, maybe for CMSF we can add to that list the AI accidentally overturning our hummers and Srykers? Oy!

I did hear the new engine might allow tanks to fall off bridges and stuff like that, so overturning might not be out of the question. But I really really REALLY hope it happens only in extraordinary curcumstances and doesn't become as maddeningly common as - for example - "gun damaged" in the CMx1 engine.

[SgtMuhammed]

One thing to remember is that rolling is rare enough, even in a vehicle with a bad rep, that it is still big news.

[GSX]

If you look at the casualty lists from Iraq, its surprising just how many have drowned after rolling into a canal. Very sad statistic really.