Syrian Ammunition and M1 Armor

[Cornelius Quilty]

Can anybody explain the following behavior of weapons in CMSF:

- Often syrian ATGM's seem to be Duds, the ones on light vehicels and carried around by foot crews usually come too short (for instance in Allahs fist all three AT-3c crews got all their missiles of, but all of these hit the ground early, as if they were mortar rounds), the ones on Tanks, especially on T-62's, usually go too far. Assumes the game that russian missiles are of inferior quality or that the older missiles in the syrian inventory are unusable by 2008?

- Syrian Tanks, even the T-72's in guards units who should get the best ammunition available, rarely use their AT rounds vs. Abrams. HE is fired, regardless of targetaspect. Assumes the AI that its gun can't harm the Abrams armor and uses HE for killing by damage as 75mm+ calibre tanks did in CM1x? If it is so, why receive syrian tanks any other rounds than HE at all? The lighter US stuff won't require AT as well.

- Luckily for gaming experience the M1 seems not to be immune to HE. After a couple of hits the Tank is often abandoned. Is this realistic?

[Pandur]

1. yes its somehow strage. something is definitely wrong :confused: especially when they unload the first salvo into the ground 40m in front of them(saw it with infantry based ATGM´s). i fired AT11 to AT14 out of tanks too...at 2km the seem to simply miss verry verry often on standing as moving targets(and yes verry regular the overshoot it and exit the map on the backside), would be better to shoot sabots or do something with missiles

2. the tacAI currently have NO plan what it is sootiung on with wich round.

in a big tank engagement i watched T72 fireing on T55MV @ 1800-2300m exclusively HE, or heat. i dont know, they seem to be unable to use up sbots

after they managed to criple a tank with HEs at longrange they swith to some crapy infantry unit and pepper it with HE too instad of taking one of tha many many tanks in the ARC...

i really beg for a "cover armor" and "cover light" arc couse that would ease out decisions for the tac ai and preserver some nerves on the gamers side

[MikeyD]

Red not using APFSDS rounds? Odd. Are you basing that in the fireball explosion animations of the shell striking (which may be common for all ammo types) or are you watching you tank's HE ammo counter tick down as you play Red? I don't play Red armor against Abrams much - don't have much of a death-wish i guess - so this is the first I've heard of this.

I believe T72's only HE is a dual purpose round like Abrams so its not really simply firing plain HE.

[Pandur]

Are you basing that in the fireball explosion animations of the shell striking

no

or are you watching you tank's HE ammo counter tick down as you play Red?

ovcourse

i play wego, i have plenty of time for that.

and i had this in a RED vs RED battle, but i think it makes no diference wich tank you are up to for the tac AI.

the tanks in question had no rockets(wich would have missed anyways ) but had HE, HEAT and APFSDS loadout for maingun. opposition had bit of reactive armor, wich makes em harder against HEAT than SABOT, so i wondered double.

[teeps]

Originally posted by Cornelius Quilty:

[QB] Can anybody explain the following behavior of weapons in CMSF:

- Often syrian ATGM's seem to be Duds, the ones on light vehicels and carried around by foot crews usually come too short (for instance in Allahs fist all three AT-3c crews got all their missiles of, but all of these hit the ground early, as if they were mortar rounds), the ones on Tanks, especially on T-62's, usually go too far. Assumes the game that russian missiles are of inferior quality or that the older missiles in the syrian inventory are unusable by 2008?

From the manual page 185:

Another major drawback is the inability to track the missile until it is at least

500m from the gunner, which effectively means targets closer than 500m can not be

engaged at all. Which is why estimates of the missile hitting the target range from

2%-25% depending on the situation and gunner skill.

I think this is what you are seeing.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

There is a known ATGM accuracy bug that is being worked on. This may be the problem as laser guided ATGMs should not miss that often.

All the best,

Kip.

[Pandur]

thanks for the info, didnt knew that for sure till now...

we would need a list or something

[dima]

Originally posted by Pandur:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Are you basing that in the fireball explosion animations of the shell striking

no

or are you watching you tank's HE ammo counter tick down as you play Red?

ovcourse

i play wego, i have plenty of time for that.

and i had this in a RED vs RED battle, but i think it makes no diference wich tank you are up to for the tac AI.

the tanks in question had no rockets(wich would have missed anyways ) but had HE, HEAT and APFSDS loadout for maingun. opposition had bit of reactive armor, wich makes em harder against HEAT than SABOT, so i wondered double. </font>

[Pandur]

the ones wich had AT-1X missiles(i had T55MV in the battle)

they fired them first than i lost the overview as so many tanks got brewed up and frames wherent perfect.

the T72M´s wich i observed closely(as this where my only 125mm guns around), showed the strange behavior as explained above.

but i will replay this battle in the next days anyways with tweaked AI plan, than i can whatch closely what the other vehicles do.

[Bonxa]

I had T72's firing AT11 at infantry targets and then using HE on T62 tanks (later using a mix of HEAT and sabot). Is CMSF modelling a round in the breach? Otherwise I simply cannot understand the use of a high tech AT11 missle on grunts. I love the sound of the 125 mm gun though.

[Cornelius Quilty]

@teeps

The targets were 1000m+ away and the AGTM was the SaggerC with up to 90% hit accuracy.

[teeps]

Ah, won't be that then, sorry! :/

[Pandur]

ok i did a test...if your tank is in something like a hull down position your ABSOLUTELY save vs. AT12 fired from T62M and MV.

the range...

T72M1 where in lane 1, t62MV in lane 2 and t62m in lane 3. enemy tanks where exactly the same model and quality for the respective lane.

distance to enemy tanks; 1190m-1200m

lane 2 and 3 fired 3 AT12 each per tank in the first round. next round everyone shot his last ATGM than switching to HEAT, wihc got all enemy tanks or my own killed in round 2. no single APFSDS fired.

means if you bring currently tanks without ATGM´s in good position vs. tanks with ATGMs(at least AT12) ther are invincible and will smoke the ATGM users with direct fire(most probably heat).

also, the T62MV used HEAT against the T62MV´s as the T62M used heat against the t62M´s.

why do they try to shoot heat into reactive armor(in case of MV model)!?

lane 1 had the T72M1 without ATGM´s. there where done after 30 or 40 sekonds as they hit pretty good on direct fire. all shots fired where HEAT, no HE this time and again no APFSDS.

AT12 hiting dirt...ALL AT-12 fired by my and the enemy tanks hit the front of the fighting positions.

unfortunately this testing pretty time consuming, so i wont do more for now

but at least i ahve a "range" now where i just need to put the tanks.

in the end one can say they like HEAT verry much, it is said that its slow and has a bad trajectory but they can manage that

but iam still courious wich tanks fire HE on tanks und under wich circumstances.

i noticed it at about 1,8 to 2km range.

[Cornelius Quilty]

"the T62MV used HEAT against the T62MV´s as the T62M used heat against the t62M" so you used T 62m's as testtargets? Then the use of HEAT instead of HE could imply that HE is indeed used vs. everything too heavy armored ---> any US Tank

[Pandur]

the tanks had "themselfs" as counterpart so to say.

T72M1 vs. T72M1

T62M vs. T62M

T62MV vs. T62MV

vs. everything too heavy armored ---> any US Tank

hm, in my case i had a T72M1 fireing HE at T55MV or T62MV(cant remember exactly) @1800m-2000m.

they should have knocked it with APFSDS at that distance, since the MV types protection is better vs HEAT bsaed stuff than kinetical, at least the little pluses say that!?

rome wasnt build in one day too, i think BFC will get that straight over time.

[Cornelius Quilty]

thx for your research anyway,

lets hope for 1.02