pad152 Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 How can you model urban combat without civilians and other non-combat units civilian cars, trucks, etc? This just doesn't seem right, hostile urban area with no-civilians, just call in an airstrike! It seems to me, to simulate an urban environment there needs to be a third party that may or may not be hostile. Please explain this to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Please do a search, this has been discussed to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Originally posted by pad152: How can you model urban combat without civilians and other non-combat units civilian cars, trucks, etc?Easy. Civilians normally make themselves scarce when the bullets are flying. I think it's called 'common sense'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillweed Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Think Phantom Fury (Faluja) instead of Gothic Serpent (Mougidishu) Soliders arn't going out of thier way to kill civies but winning goodwill is not the objective. Taking ground/kill bad guys is. If you need to airstrike a building and civ casualties are a potential, oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pad152 Posted October 28, 2005 Author Share Posted October 28, 2005 objective. Taking ground/kill bad guys is.Isn't that the problem in an urban environment? you can't always tell who are the bad guys until they start shooting. A car driving down the street, is it a scared civilian or bad guy! I just don't think you can have a simple good guy/bad guy being very realistic in modern urban warfare in the without a third party. The subject of civilians has become so taboo, you can't even cover it in a wargame? The modern version of the Operational Art of War had civilians! The U.S. has forgotten in war there are no civilians, are enemies have not! Is the game going to enforce these same mistakes! Maybe someone should create a wargame for the pin heads in pentagon that allows you to change the rules of engagement to see what can really happen in modern urban warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liebchen Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Originally posted by pad152: This just doesn't seem right, hostile urban area with no-civilians, just call in an airstrike!That's what the Germans thought when the bombed Hell out of Stalingrad before entering the city. Instead of helping themselves, they made the terrain much more difficult to take. Sometimes it's better to use a needle than a hammer, civilians or no civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtz Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Originally posted by pad152: The subject of civilians has become so taboo, you can't even cover it in a wargame? Not taboo. Just lack of time to include civilians properly. Maybe you would prefer to wait a few more years for CM:SF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 We've discussed this enough, there really don't need another discussion to cover the exact same ground as before. Short answer: 1. For offensive ops, which is what CM:SF simulates, civilian inclusion is not critical. Would be nice, but it isn't required. 2. Civilians aren't on the CM:SF menu because it would take us many months to just get in a semi-functional civilian feature. It would likely take a year to do it really well. The logic in #1 shows us that this would be a dramatic error to devote that sort of time into something that isn't all that necessary. 3. At some point we do wish to get civilians simulated in some form. This would allow us to simulate stability and counter-insurgency ops, both of which (to different degrees) require a strong and civilian feature. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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