Simulation Detail - Blessing or Curse

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by luderbamsen:

As a general rule, I'm heavily in favor of modding, the more the merrier. Much of it is, well, crap, true, but there are some real nuggets here and there.

To be honest, I often get the feeling that some game makers refuse to support mods either because of hopelessly arcane protectionism, or simply to avoid embarrassment (being outperformed by a bunch of "amateurs" working in their spare time).

With the exeption of Half-Life/Counterstrike, I don't belive that any mod has seriously increased the number of copies sold.

I wonder what a survey here would suggest? I've downloaded mods for many games - CM natch, but also Close Combat, Operation Flashpoint and probably others. I have to agree that at least in my case, I already owned these games. I know there are WWII mods for some games that I don't own that I briefly considered purchasing because of the existence of the mod, but seeing the litany of unfinished mod projects for OFP for example (usually announced with great fanfare, flashy websites and sometimes even domain names), I just never bothered to do so.

Would be interesting to know if the experience of others is similar. Anyone ever buy a game solely to play a mod for it?

[Capt. Toleran]

Yes, Halflife and Halflife 2, solely for Counterstrike and Day of Defeat. I care very little for the Halflife single player games, but the CS and DoD experience makes it worth it. I even bough the gold Halflife 2 package so that I would have access to their entire back library in case I wanted to play more mods. This also applied to Battlefield 1942, which I bought because of the extensive mod community (Desert Combat, Vietnam mod, etc.)

IMHO, this is the wave of the gaming future. Mods are usually created for free by dedicated hobbyists, people so obsessed with a particular topic (in a good way) that they will create reams of content based on that interest. A winning strategy is to generate a fairly open playing platform for gamers, and to let the hobbyists do the rest.

[Battlefront.com]

Would be interesting to know if the experience of others is similar. Anyone ever buy a game solely to play a mod for it?

I am sure the guys who totally get into modding do, but they are an extremely tiny number of people. So in general I think the answer is a big NO. People do not buy games because they can or can not be modded. They buy the games that interest them as games, with modding being icing on the cake for many. What I mean by that is if a new Half Life came out, that was as groundbreaking as the original, people would buy it as much as they would if it had or didn't have mod capabilities.

Where mods do have a big value to us, as developers, is long term community development. It gives people new things to talk about and share with each other long after the newness of the game itself has worn off. Therefore, mods are an important thing for us to keep in mind for that reason, not for increasing sales.

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Capt. Toleran:

Yes, Halflife and Halflife 2, solely for Counterstrike and Day of Defeat. I care very little for the Halflife single player games, but the CS and DoD experience makes it worth it. I even bough the gold Halflife 2 package so that I would have access to their entire back library in case I wanted to play more mods. This also applied to Battlefield 1942, which I bought because of the extensive mod community (Desert Combat, Vietnam mod, etc.)

IMHO, this is the wave of the gaming future. Mods are usually created for free by dedicated hobbyists, people so obsessed with a particular topic (in a good way) that they will create reams of content based on that interest. A winning strategy is to generate a fairly open playing platform for gamers, and to let the hobbyists do the rest.

So the developer broadens his horizons beyond niche or core markets, you mean? Like when Operation Flashpoint is able to be tranformed into a Jurassic Park game (I've got some of the mods myself, though they are subpar), it obviously appeals beyond just the people interested in a fictional Cold War game (providing the word of mouth of the mod is hot enough to actually encourage people to buy OFP for just the mod alone).

Makes sense. So if you sell a bare-bones game that has certain features the competition doesn't, the actual details are almost irrelevant. 3D models, textures, character data (does animation fall under stuff easily modded?) What will make or break a game, then, is not how well detailed the stats for the M2 Bradley in the game are, but how easily it can be tranformed into a British tank at Cambrai in the First World War?

If any game can include any historical units, then the difference between them ceases to be fidelity of detail, but rather what the game permits in a broad sense.

[Battlefront.com]

Capt. Toleran,

I did forget about "game packs" and what not when I was talking about sales. I do agree that there is a marketing angle for those. However, I still don't see much of our sales (at least) coming from people who buy our games based on the mods available. We have the sort of thing that either interests people or it doesn't. Also, I can see how buying a game can be inlfuenced by mods when trying to make a choice between basically similar games. Why go with Game X if it has no mods and Game Z if it has a ton of mods? This too is irrelevant for us since CM has no peers to compare against. People will purchase CM or not based on their interest in the core of the game. Opening it up for the world to play with will only come at our expense.

Steve

[luderbamsen]

Steve,

All I'm saying is, if CM:SF reaches a wider audience, then don't underestimate the importance of content quantity and time between releases, albeit not at the expense of quality (a Catch 22, I know, but there you go).

The "fringe players" may enjoy the game very much, but they may still have a shorter attention span than those of us more or less married to the game. Surely, having them buy all the modules, rather than just the original game, is preferable, no?

Respectfully

luderbamsen

PS: My first 1/72 was a Spitfire Mk. IX :cool:

[Capt. Toleran]

Steve,

I'm actually pretty confident that what you guys have planned will be perfect in terms of accomodating mods and developers, if it's anything like the previous releases. To me, that's the strength of the product in terms of replayability -- allowing scenario developers to create new content without having to do too many work arounds. Here I am, years later, still coming back to CMBB and CMAK because of outside development.

For instance, I am always happy when a scenario designer makes a CMBO-theater scenario in CMAK. The units are there, the terrain is available, and something that the product wasn't necessarily focused on can be created anyway. It would be nice to have some of the Gulf War II battles recreated in CMSF by outside designers, and I'm expecting that if CMSF is somewhat flexible, this will be possible. Also, as other have mentioned, it might be fun to do some anti-Chechen ops as well, which doesn't seem that far from reality if the terrain and equipment are available. Only the names change (and we need snow and forests).

On that same note, I hope you don't waste too much development time on doing a storyline for the default campaign, as (as I stated in the other thread), I don't see that as your forte. Your previous games have had WWII history to provide the "story." What makes the CM games so great is not the story, it's the tools, in a realistic setting, with a realistic combat environment. It's the difference between playing soccer with a rag ball on a dirt lot, and playing it on a lush green regulation field with a pro ball and nice uniforms. Both are fun, but the latter is preferable. We'll provide the teams.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by luderbamsen:

PS: My first 1/72 was a Spitfire Mk. IX :cool:

Mine was a Monogram Snap-Tite P-40 in the markings of the Flying Tigers. I was excited because I got to use real model paints on it, just like the ones Dad built. I used silver on the underside thinking that was what the proper colour in all those books was instead of Neutral Gray. Botched it completely but hung it proudly over my bed not knowing.

[Battlefront.com]

Dorosh, did yours have the little battery powered motor in it? Mine did

I think the main difference between the mass market games and mods compared to CM and mods is the size of their audience and the type of game they have. A FPS and RTS game typically has a shelf life of about 2-6 months due to the way retail works. Worse, because it is largely technology and fad driven, as soon as the next best and/or cool thing comes out interest in the older ones dry up. This creates marketing problems because by the time they come out with a sequel the customer has been distracted by another dozen major titles from competitors. Mods are a way to keep people interested in a particular franchise until the next one is ready. CM doesn't have any of these problems.

The other major difference is that the mass of customers a hit game, like Half-Life, has floods the company with money. Far in excess of their investment. They don't need to hit up their core customers for money again in order to make the next great game. They also would have trouble doing that anyway since there is so much competition. For us we are not in such a position. In order to get ahead, from a financial standpoint, we need sales in excess of what we made off of the original product. This is because we are a niche and yet have pretty significant costs to cover. Therefore, we can't afford to spend 3 years making a game engine and then have a single period of strong sales with years worth of freebie mods keeping people happy and less likely to buy additional products from us.

We love having mods for CM, but we must keep them far more limited than other games. It's the only way for us to stay in business.

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Dorosh, did yours have the little battery powered motor in it? Mine did

You win again! :mad:

[luderbamsen]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The other major difference is that the mass of customers a hit game, like Half-Life, has floods the company with money. Far in excess of their investment. They don't need to hit up their core customers for money again in order to make the next great game. They also would have trouble doing that anyway since there is so much competition. For us we are not in such a position. In order to get ahead, from a financial standpoint, we need sales in excess of what we made off of the original product. This is because we are a niche and yet have pretty significant costs to cover. Therefore, we can't afford to spend 3 years making a game engine and then have a single period of strong sales with years worth of freebie mods keeping people happy and less likely to buy additional products from us.

We love having mods for CM, but we must keep them far more limited than other games. It's the only way for us to stay in business.

Steve

Steve,

This is my point exactly. I honestly don't belive most gamers really care where their next fix comes from: Commercial expansions/modules or mods, they just want to play their favorite game with some new content.

Mods may be free, but CM in particular requires exeptional realism, authenticity and attention to detail, so I'd say it's about even. The main difference is that with mods, gamers feel they can have a say, that they're listened to. This is already the case with BFC so you're off the hook there as well.

As you say yourself, you need more sales to get ahead. Now, if this (hopefully) happens, some of these new gamers will certainly catch the CM bug and mutate into grogs like the rest of us. But I firmly believe that many of these new customers will, to an extent, treat CM:SF as "just another game": If their interest isn's renewed on a regular basis with more content, they'll move elsewhere.

So I honestly belive that to keep these customers happy, and spending money, there must be a regular and timely influx of more content, be it from mods, modules or whatnot. I also belive that they will happily pay for this added content (this being CM, if they didn't, they probably wouldn't buy the game in the first place).

In short: If CM:SF sells beyond the grogs, you must provide more quality content, and quickly. It doesn't really matter how you provide it, as long as you do.

Comments?

Respectfully

luderbamsen