Best ever Company commander?

[Peter Cairns]

We've had plenty of discussions (fights...), about greatest ever American etc, but given that the focus of CM:SF will be commanding a Company sized force, I thought I'd see what people thought.

Not being a grog on these things I am no expert, indeed my nomination for best ever small unit commander will be.....

"DOC" from Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

So what are peoples nominations,

Peter.

[Challenger 2]

Lieutenant-Colonel Herbert Jones VC OBE

During the attack against an enemy who was well dug in with mutually supporting positions sited in depth, the Battalion was held up just South of Darwin by a particularly well-prepared and resilient enemy position of at least eleven trenches on an important ridge. A number of casualties were received. In order to read the battle fully and to ensure that the momentum of his attack was not lost, Colonel Jones took forward his reconnaissance party to the foot of a re-entrant which a section of his Battalion had just secured. Despite persistent, heavy and accurate fire the reconnaissance party gained the top of the re-entrant, at approximately the same height as the enemy positions. From here Colonel Jones encouraged the direction of his Battalion mortar fire, in an effort to neutralise the enemy positions. However, these had been well prepared and continued to pour effective fire onto the Battalion advance, which, by now held up for over an hour and under increasingly heavy artillery fire, was in danger of faltering.

In his effort to gain a good viewpoint, Colonel Jones was now at the very front of his Battalion. It was clear to him that desperate measures were needed in order to overcome the enemy position and rekindle the attack, and that unless these measures were taken promptly the Battalion would sustain increasing casualties and the attack perhaps even fail. It was time for personal leadership and action. Colonel Jones immediately seized a sub-machine gun, and, calling on those around him and with total disregard for his own safety, charged the nearest enemy position. This action exposed him to fire from a number of trenches. As he charged up a short slope at the enemy position he was seen to fall and roll backward downhill. He immediately picked himself up, and again charged the enemy trench, firing his sub-machine gun and seemingly oblivious to the intense fire directed at him. He was hit by fire from another trench which he outflanked, and fell dying only a few feet from the enemy he had assaulted. A short time later a company of the Battalion attacked the enemy, who quickly surrendered. The display of courage by Colonel Jones had completely undermined their will to fight further.

[Hans]

Rommel in WWI against the Italians

Ernst Junger also in WW I

Capt. Barber Company F, 7th Marines Korean war

[Peter Cairns]

I think H Jones more than deserved his VC, but can he really qualify as "best" with only one engagement.

I am sure that WW1 and WW2, not to mention Korea and Vietnam, would give examples of consistent excellence over time, and then I am sure at least someone will bring up a name from the the US civil war.

Rommel in WW1 has been mentioned, and I seem to remember that Patton had a colourful early career, although like I say Iam no expert.

Then of course if we want to destroy any attempt at a good discussion all it needs is someone to mention Kennedy or Kerry.

Peter.

[flamingknives]

There was that airborne chap at Arnhem, won the VC for his actions over several days. Don't recall his name off hand.

Or whoever was in charge of the Ox and Bucks L.I. on D-Day. They did reasonably well for themselves. (Pegasus Bridge?)

[JonS]

Given that a WWII UK div had 70-odd coy commanders, and there were ~15 of those in NWE 44/45, plus more in Italy, and still more in Burma, not to mention all those in NA and NWA earlier in the war, as well as France in 1940, etc, and on top of that the high turnover in those positions (do acting coy commanders count? What about Sgt Bloggs or Cpl Snooks, who took over after all the officers were hors de combat?), and then there is the US, Germany, Italy, USSR, Japanese, etc, you are talking about a VAST pool of potential candidates, and that is just WWII.

I suspect that the best you will be able to do is something along the lines of "most well known", "best publicist" (Winters), or "best at self-aggrandisement" (Rommel).

As for H Jones, I think his 2iC's response on hearing of Jones' demise rather does for that claim to the title.

[ January 14, 2007, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

I think H Jones more than deserved his VC, but can he really qualify as "best" with only one engagement.

He wasn't a small unit commander, either.

A company is a sub-unit, aka "small unit". A battalion is a unit. I thought the question referred to the former.

In any event, JonS has nailed this on the head, I think. Strike publicist, though, and replace with "sympathetic historian".

[Peter Cairns]

JonS,

You are of course right in the sense that great Coy CO's who we don't know about won't get votes, and I suppose you can argue (and I certainly would) that anyone who commands a company in combat deserves some repect.

It will probably also be dominated by people who went on to "bigger" things as there earlier careers will have been documented.

So we are restricted to accounts of Commanders in combat and to select from them.

I once read Sheehan's "A Bright Shinning Lie" and was pretty inpressed with Vanns early career in korea.

Peter.

[JonS]

Ambrose was a historian?

[Peter Cairns]

Michael,

Yes I did put company, but I think if you take it more as "small unit" engagement or "tactical" then you could include Jones and I'd be happy with Platoon commanders too.

Peter.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

Ambrose was a historian?

Exactly, but Winters has a biographer as well - published at about the same time as his autobiography. And Webster's book mentions him. SLA Marshall thought little of his deed at Brecourt Manor and only gave it passing mention - and incorrectly attributed success to tank support that in reality was never there. All in all, goes to point out the power of historians, inadvertent or not.

Was Charles S. MacDonald any good? I don't know of any Canadian company commanders besides Strome Galloway that published extensive memoirs.

And few historians seem to have taken a third person view of them - certainly not to compare their relative merits.

I suspect any conversation would necessarily revolve around the VC, MOH and RK holders. Fair enough, but what criteria are we using to judge?

Major Alex Campbell ("A" Company, The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment) led a charge at Valguarnera against a Germany convoy, personally using a Bren Gun to kill 20 Germans and resulting in the death or capture of 6 truckfulls of Germans.

Is that what a company commander should have been doing? Personal leadership sure. He was killed a few months later leading a similar charge during the Moro River campaign. Does that make him the best? I don't think so.

Back to Company E, 506 PIR - some say Herbert Sobel was the most inspirational company commander they had, because he was so hated that everyone was inspired to excel despite his deficiencies. Best?

[ January 14, 2007, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Not for the first time I tend to go along similar lines to Jons…and some others here.

Even if WWII were taken in isolation, there were so many thousands of company commanders that many hundreds will have been “as good as it gets” if we knew their deeds in detail. But no harm in playing the game restricted to the few who’s histories we do know.

Winters may well have been in the category of “as good as it gets” but he clearly has a huge exposure advantage.

Of course, there will also have been many a German, sadly including many an SS officer, in the “as good as it gets” category to. I always use the SS in WWII as proof that “bad guys” can also be very good at what they do. So if you want to win at anything you must be competent, simply having right on your side will do you no good.

At the company level many commanders on all sides will have been very good at what they did given the cards they were dealt.

All the best,

Kip.

[Challenger 2]

I dont think that really you could claim one man as best coy commander as you said before their such as vast selction from WW2 and after not to mention WW1

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Challenger 2:

I dont think that really you could claim one man as best coy commander as you said before their such as vast selction from WW2 and after not to mention WW1

Even so, I think the issue comes down more to "what is meant by best"? With no qualitative or quantitative means of comparison, it is a pointless exercise akin to "what is your favourite kind of gun" you see on many military history boards.

Still, I'd be interested in knowing what criteria others would consider important. Kill ratio? Popularity? Longevity? Unit discipline? (And how do you define the latter? Would a company with a high rate of courts martial indicate a good commander, or a bad commander? Or for that matter, indicate anything at all about him?)

One might have a hard time, also, putting aside the fact that most of the criteria one could use are intangible or unknowable (particularly stuff like kill ratios).

[Challenger 2]

Yeah

I dont think that kill rotio makes a good leader or necessarily popularity. But unit disaplince and loyalty I would say was essential.

There are never bad soldier only bad officers

[coe]

maybe the best company commander is one we don't hear of being a personal hero but one who took care of the men, advocated for their needs, set them up in the best possible positions that were available, had retreat routes etc. In other words the best company commander maximizes his/her unit's chances of survival and maximizes its effectiveness...there's not much you can hold against a good commander who receives orders that are so over above his unit's capability that despite what he does the chances of his unit's success is really low. (e.g. you must charge over an open plain against a well entrenched enemy who has tanks and artillery and you are unsupported).

Speaking of kill ratio stories, you always hear of western allied soldiers doing something like eliminating 5 machine gun nests single handedly or killing 14-20 enemy soldiers etc. but you never hear of stories of axis soldiers doing the same thing upon the western allies....is this because it didn't happen or just never reported? e.g. who was the Autie Murphy of the Germans or Japanese or Italians in the later part of the war fighting against the Americans and British and Canadians and New Zealanders etc.

[Lurkur]

Originally posted by coe:

...who was the Autie Murphy of the Germans or Japanese or Italians in the later part of the war fighting against the Americans and British and Canadians and New Zealanders etc.

Sergeant Alexander Uhlig led a beat-up company of Fallschirmjägers to capture a US battalion in Normandy.

I went to Normandy and all I got was the Knight's Cross

[coe]

I'd like to know how he did the attack part that pushed an entire battalion back 350 yards with only 50 men while inflicting alot of casualties but only losing 2 men.