A StratAI problem with ATGM ambush scenario

[Darkmath]

I play several times as US side.

I ntice while rushing my bradleys the syrians ATGM do nothing, then get hit by 25mm autocannon.

How can I make the Syrian AI more reactive, ie. shoot on sight with the editor?

[Pandur]

i dont know, i tried it a few times as the syrians and i tried 2 turns to let the AI fire the rockets by itself through cover arc. nothing.

when you give em manual target they eventually do.

however, i also had one of the launcer teams see a bradley but i cant aim at it becouse of the "revers-slope" thingy.

shouldnt the laser be able to target the vehicle as soon as it is seen!? the rocket shouldnt have a problem, it comes from slightly above.

[JasonC]

I played it as the Syrians, the US rushed in. He did indeed see one of my ATGM teams before I deigned to open fire, and torched it. But coming forward that far, he drove between my RPG-9 teams, and I opened with those and the remaining ATGM. Smoked all 3 Brads in less than 2 minutes.

Amazingly, I then had some trouble with 14 dismounted US infantry (lol). They were moving through the open so I figured it would be easy to light them up, seeing that I had more than a dozen AKs and 2 medium machineguns.

I ran low on ammo after hitting 8 of the 14. The other 6 were still coming, though crawling on their bellies, exhausted, and only occasionally firing back. (+1 and vets and US makes 'em pretty tough!)

The difficulty, apparently, was hitting (with lower quality troops) and I'm guessing here, but perhaps also penetrating body armor at 250-400 yards with 7.62x39.

The MGs were more successful, and a few of the AKs (from the RPG teams) that were closer. But firing with the bulk of the AKs at what I considered perfectly acceptable range, I readily ran "dry" before they ran out of unwounded men.

Still won a total, not complaining. But for future Syrian players, be advised that the AK caliber stuff wants to be close to hurt these blooming "turtles"...

I didn't have an issue with the AI, and I think waiting a long time to fire can be a reasonable call sometimes in this situation. I did, and it worked for me, despite loss of one of the ATGM teams. Which I put down to just not having the best position for that one, letting them get spotting even while hiding and at 500m range.

Of course, with the US optics and relatively lax Syrians, it is entirely possible they would be seen regardless of placement, once at that range. We just have to learn where effective hiding range ends all over again.

[thewood]

But Jason, wouldn't you expect that the US infantry, after taking 8/14 casualties would probably broken off or gone for cover.. I find that anything over +1 for the US makes them fanatics.

[track]

Considering how careful U.S. troops are in avoiding own losses makes the missing morale settings even more must have back things.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by thewood:

But Jason, wouldn't you expect that the US infantry, after taking 8/14 casualties would probably broken off or gone for cover.. I find that anything over +1 for the US makes them fanatics.

When I played this as the Syrians, I had a similar experience - the US infantry were kind of caught in a crossfire and basically went to ground while the Syrian infantry ineffectively shot at them with AKs, slowly wearing them down.

But I'm not sure that this is unrealistic - I think it's certainly more realistic than what would have happened in CMx1, where the squad would have eventually broken, run for the rear, and gotten slaughtered. Assuming it didn't get caught in a loop causing it to run back and forth until it finally died..

In this case, they stayed in place, returned fire sporadically (they were fully surpressed), and were eventually picked off...but I think that is not unrealistic (given that there was no cover to speak of), and certainly more realistic than would have been the case in CMx1.

[Duck of Earl]

Playing as Blue force, I have been unable to entice the Red force to fire their AT4s at the Bradleys. I set short covered arcs for all my units to prevent suppressing fire, edited the defenders' stance to "active" to encourage aggressive use of AT assets, and paraded my units all around the map, but the AT4s would only fire at my Recon infantry. Seems like a targeting glitch is preventing them from firing on the Bradleys.

[JasonC]

Should the Americans run away? No, I think they'd go to ground, crawl into a ditch with reverse slope cover, and get on the radio asking for help. With the occasional SAW blast outgoing to try to suppress the Syrian fire.

I was just surprised is all. I've found AK fire at 100 yards or less is rapidly deadly, no complaints there. And I think the MGs could have cut them up alone, if they tried to get up again, and I'd been more careful with the ammo.

But the AKs needed to be a lot closer to KO them all without first running dry. I don't know how realistic that is. Depends on whether it reflects good body armor modeling, or morale overmodeling, or too lousy Syrian accuracy. The last would not be realistic in my opinion. But the first would be perfectly believable - US ceramic plate body armor will stop a 7.62x39 at long enough range.

[thewood]

Some great insight in the posts here. Admittedly my knee-jerk reaction on morale and routing was, its not like CM, it must be broken. I still there are some TACAI and self preservation issues, but reading these makes me realize some of it is juts different.

[GriffinCheng+]

Jason, I concur with you here. The Syrians MG team is not very effective when it come to long range (>100m). They keep firing at a lone M3 surviving crew at 200+m for over 4 min (iirc) without hitting anything, the guy just keep running. The RPG, RF and HG units are far more effective...

Unfortunately, when come to closer distance, MG team get cut down rather rapidly by US teams before the Syrians can prove themselves....

Two things:

1. Has anyone seen any grenade exchanges? Every Syrian unit has some, but I have yet to see grenade thrown by both sides after 4 or 5 games as Syrians. Or were my teams placed to far away?

2. Is MG jamming modeled, if yes or how? All MGs here seem to fire for minutes without any jam or have the barrel replaced. I have only seen MG paused for ammo loading.

[ToadMan]

I played this scenario last weekend so I don't remember the detail, but is it supposed to be played from the US side? I thought the mission brief was focused on the use of the ATGM to attack the US as they approach which I think should explain why the Syrian side seems dormant when played as US.

As for routing and morale, I think that the Syrians become suppressed a bit too easily and/or the US not easily enough.

I would say that after one or two casualties in a US squad, they should hit the ground, and one or two squads so affected in a Platoon, should equal a rout for the US platoon. For vehicles, I'd say for the US one vehicle lost would be a rout for that unit and probably carry over to any associated dismounts. What I'm getting at is that when the US takes casualties it should rout earlier, rather than getting to the point where one squad is left hiding in a ditch - it's too late to rout at that point.

Of course, routing units have to have the ability to be rallied again giving greater importance to good order HQ units.

The Syrians, well they're fighting "at home" and while they're less coherent, I think they're probably also a bit more likely to die for their cause and so not break quite so easily.

As it is, when I've played as the Syrians they're usually pinned quickly and basically become uncontrollable while the US units in the same situation are still under control. Seems a bit back to front to me.

TM.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by ToadMan:

As for routing and morale, I think that the Syrians become suppressed a bit too easily and/or the US not easily enough.

[snip]

The Syrians, well they're fighting "at home" and while they're less coherent, I think they're probably also a bit more likely to die for their cause and so not break quite so easily.

As it is, when I've played as the Syrians they're usually pinned quickly and basically become uncontrollable while the US units in the same situation are still under control. Seems a bit back to front to me.

TM.

For more straight-up fighting, use Syrian special forces - they are really quite competent and have a better weapons and ammo loadout than the normal Syrians.

In CMBB terms, Syrian regulars are Russian Green/Conscript troops; Syrian SFs are Russian Regular/Crack troops. (US troops are gamey crack German Fallschirmjaeger...) Also, every Syrian SF squad has an RPG-29, and there is a separate RPG 29 team attached to every SF (two squad) platoon.

IMO, they are the best matchup for Stryker units in QBs...

[ng cavscout]

Could the inaccuracy of the Syrian AK fire be a reflection of the real life Arab tendency to fire full auto in the general area and believe that Allah will guide their bullets if he wants them to hit? This is especially prevalent in less trained units, but even more highly trained Iraqi units have an occasional tendency to "spray and pray".

[Darkmath]

I have mostly problems with Red Side as AI.

While I ordered my Bradleys to rush towards the enemy, which is pretty suicidal, syrians ATGM do nothing and get killed once spotted.

They could destroy all the Bradleys at their spawn.

I tried to change Red side AI plan from Normal to Active, but it doesn't change anything.

Is there a bug?

[Drusus]

If you want to get rid of US infantry, use ATGMs against them. My experience is that it is a maximum of two shots and a squad is gone. Usually one shot does the trick.