For Me, If WEGO Goes, I Go

[tinjaw]

I don't know how else to say this, but I am seeing that the focus of CM:SF has been on the RT aspects. I liked CMx1 because of the WEGO. I don't like RT. I occasionally try the latest and greatest RTS games, and play for a while, but they don't have anything in them that makes the clickfest go away. So if Battlefront is looking to make the Combat Mission franchise into a RTS because there is more money there, then OK, and I won't be buying another CM game. If WEGO is staying, then bygolly fix it. Start by making CMx2 do what CMx1 did, then we can talk about changes. As it stands now, I can't see playing CMSF any further after the newness wears off and will most likely go back to CMx1.

And, since I am just throwing my opinions around, if CMx2 goes for the RTS crowd, IMNSHO it is going to die fast. As an realtime game, CMSF is just a kludge. Even though I dislike RTS games, I have played many, and Combat Mission Shock Force falls below well below the bar as a realtime game.

I'm not going to ask for a refund, but I will be waiting to see if BFC realizes their mistake and makes version 1.5 what it should have been, namely the next version of CMx1 and not a whole new game. As I see it, the "new and improved" graphics engine is not worth the loss of all the goodness that was the CMx1 WEGO game. You have forgotten your roots.

[Xipe66]

ISTAY if YOUGO. Deal?

Also, CMx2 does not go for the RTS crowd or you haven't played any of the available RTS' available.

The interface and the information available to you have definite faults to them, but they can mostly be approached in a constructive manner.

Good riddance to you, sir.

[Huntarr]

Ditto Tinjaw

Now please take my $70 bucks and focus it on WEGO. Not some low brow RTS clone.

[Steiner14]

Could you be more specific what you don't like in the current implementation of the WEGO-system?

[tinjaw]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

Could you be more specific what you don't like in the current implementation of the WEGO-system?

Sure, here are some examples of the top of my head.

</font>

• No WEGO multiplayer at all. Not even subpar or broken multiplayer WEGO.</font>
• The command queuing system is not adequate. I cannot do things like move a vehicle, dismount the troops, move the vehicle back to the rear, turn to face the enemy. And I can't even do parts of that, for example move to a location and change my facing once there.</font>
• The GUI has been changed, I believe, to focus on RT play. For example, no right-click menus, and an odd way of doing hotkeys using the 't' and 'y' keys.</font>
• Most, if not all, the new 'tasks' are only usable in RT mode. For example, running back to the vehicle, reloading, and returning to your former, or a new, position.</font>
• Old behaviors added for WEGO in CM:BB and CM:AK are disappearing. For example, hunt is now move to contact. You can't to LOS without targeting.</font>

[Becket]

I think CMSF has the most awesomest resource gathering and tech tree climbing in the genre! And man, I love building my barracks and pumping out Strykers!!!

What a great RTS!!!!!

(Sorry, it's just getting to be annoying listening to non-gamers suggest that CMSF is an RTS. Broaden your horizons, wargamers, and maybe you won't make such mind-numbingly stupid statements.)

And hey, OP - if you think I'm being harsh on you, I am. I think it's great to suggest features you'd like to see. But when you coat your post in baseless assumptions that any gamer (not an exclusive wargamer) would find infantile, how can they be taken seriously?

[ July 29, 2007, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Becket ]

[Roter Stern]

never heard of a game-type called "IGO" .. any relation to Toyota "Aygo"?

[Cheeba]

Originally posted by Becket:

I think CMSF has the most awesomest resource gathering and tech tree climbing in the genre! And man, I love building my barracks and pumping out Strykers!!!

What a great RTS!!!!!

(Sorry, it's just getting to be annoying listening to non-gamers suggest that CMSF is an RTS. Broaden your horizons, wargamers, and maybe you won't make such mind-numbingly stupid statements.)

Yeah, just like in Close Combat! Or Ground Control! No, hang on...

RTS - Real Time Strategy. I'm not sure where you're getting all that resource-gathering crap from, that's just an additional aspect that SOME RTS games have. CMx2 is a strategy game that takes place in real time, hence it's an RTS.

[Roter Stern]

Originally posted by Cheeba:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Becket:

I think CMSF has the most awesomest resource gathering and tech tree climbing in the genre! And man, I love building my barracks and pumping out Strykers!!!

What a great RTS!!!!!

(Sorry, it's just getting to be annoying listening to non-gamers suggest that CMSF is an RTS. Broaden your horizons, wargamers, and maybe you won't make such mind-numbingly stupid statements.)

Yeah, just like in Close Combat! Or Ground Control! No, hang on...

RTS - Real Time Strategy. I'm not sure where you're getting all that resource-gathering crap from, that's just an additional aspect that SOME RTS games have. CMx2 is a strategy game that takes place in real time, hence it's an RTS. </font>

[Cheeba]

You could make the exact same argument about Close Combat, to be fair.

[Becket]

Originally posted by Cheeba:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Becket:

I think CMSF has the most awesomest resource gathering and tech tree climbing in the genre! And man, I love building my barracks and pumping out Strykers!!!

What a great RTS!!!!!

(Sorry, it's just getting to be annoying listening to non-gamers suggest that CMSF is an RTS. Broaden your horizons, wargamers, and maybe you won't make such mind-numbingly stupid statements.)

Yeah, just like in Close Combat! Or Ground Control! No, hang on...

RTS - Real Time Strategy. I'm not sure where you're getting all that resource-gathering crap from, that's just an additional aspect that SOME RTS games have. CMx2 is a strategy game that takes place in real time, hence it's an RTS. </font>

[tinjaw]

First of all, RTS means Real Time Strategy. IOW a strategy game played in real time. Strategy as in not puzzle, not adventure, but strategy. The RTS genre may be dominated by clones with tech trees and resources, but that is only because the developers seem to be stuck in a rut and can't develop anything new.

But it seems that some of you have missed the point in the rush to make juvenile flames. I am not claiming that CMSF is another clone of the current crop of RTS games. Nor am I saying it will become a clone of the current crop of RTS games. I never said it we start to have tech trees and resource points.

What I did say is that the market has predefined stereotypes and gamers that fit into marketing buckets. One of them is RTS gamers, and it is a very large market. I only claimed that BFC seems to be catering to that market, changing the game to have more in common with RTS games with the hope of appealing to that market.

So flame all you want, as the people I am addressing my concerns to understand what I am saying.

[humor]And from the look of all the juvenile flames this posting has attracted in such a short time, it appears that Battlefront's dreams are coming true and the RTS fanbois are starting to attract like flies. Hopefully it will subside when they go back to school.[/humor]

[Xipe66]

Childish as in making demanding negative posts? You're on the floor screaming at your mom at the supermarket, dude. Spare me further rationalizations as to why I am supposed to be the childish one.

Also, you _really_ have no concept of the "RTS crowd".

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by Tinjaw:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Steiner14:

Could you be more specific what you don't like in the current implementation of the WEGO-system?

Sure, here are some examples of the top of my head.

</font>

• No WEGO multiplayer at all. Not even subpar or broken multiplayer WEGO.
  </font>

[Roter Stern]

Originally posted by Cheeba:

You could make the exact same argument about Close Combat, to be fair.

EXACTLY! And you wouldn't go around calling CC a "run of the mill C&C-clone", now would you?

[Cheeba]

Originally posted by The Louch:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cheeba:

You could make the exact same argument about Close Combat, to be fair.

EXACTLY! And you wouldn't go around calling CC a "run of the mill C&C-clone", now would you? </font>

[Becket]

Originally posted by Tinjaw:

First of all, RTS means Real Time Strategy. IOW a strategy game played in real time. Strategy as in not puzzle, not adventure, but strategy. The RTS genre may be dominated by clones with tech trees and resources, but that is only because the developers seem to be stuck in a rut and can't develop anything new.

But it seems that some of you have missed the point in the rush to make juvenile flames. I am not claiming that CMSF is another clone of the current crop of RTS games. Nor am I saying it will become a clone of the current crop of RTS games. I never said it we start to have tech trees and resource points.

What I did say is that the market has predefined stereotypes and gamers that fit into marketing buckets. One of them is RTS gamers, and it is a very large market. I only claimed that BFC seems to be catering to that market, changing the game to have more in common with RTS games with the hope of appealing to that market.

So flame all you want, as the people I am addressing my concerns to understand what I am saying.

[humor]And from the look of all the juvenile flames this posting has attracted in such a short time, it appears that Battlefront's dreams are coming true and the RTS fanbois are starting to attract like flies. Hopefully it will subside when they go back to school.[/humor]

Simple tip: rewrite your original post to get rid of all of the flawed assertions, assumptions, and demands, and instead rephrase it as a tactful wishlist for what you think would make the game more enjoyable for you.

Then see what response you get.

To the extent you think that is exactly what your original post consists of - that's why my wishlist for the forum is an ignore list.

[SgtMuhammed]

Personally I am afraid to try RT mode. I can barely remember the commands in WEGO so I don't know where they made it more RT friendly.

[Becket]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

Personally I am afraid to try RT mode. I can barely remember the commands in WEGO so I don't know where they made it more RT friendly.

Try it. It's really enjoyable. As long as you play at veteran level, the pauses merely convert the playstyle to a "user defined turn" system.

Elite removes the ability to pause, and that's pretty harsh.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Tinjaw:

[*]No WEGO multiplayer at all. Not even subpar or broken multiplayer WEGO.

PBEM... WEGO, not RT

[*]The command queuing system is not adequate. I cannot do things like move a vehicle, dismount the troops, move the vehicle back to the rear, turn to face the enemy. And I can't even do parts of that, for example move to a location and change my facing once there.

You couldn't do that in CMx1 either ('cept the facing part). You can, however do everything CMx1 did, if fact, some things are easier because the pause command actually works right in CMx2. As for facing your vehicles at the end, try fast waypoint, fast waypoint, reverse waypoint... tada... you are now facing the way you want

[*]The GUI has been changed, I believe, to focus on RT play. For example, no right-click menus, and an odd way of doing hotkeys using the 't' and 'y' keys.

I'm not thrilled about the new commands, but they aren't a deal breaker, mostly its just getting used to the new shortcuts (I didn't use the pulldown menu before). I haven't looked at the key config file yet

[*]Most, if not all, the new 'tasks' are only usable in RT mode. For example, running back to the vehicle, reloading, and returning to your former, or a new, position.

And that isn't useful in WEGO... why? I'm guessing you've never run low in ammo in CMx1

[*]Old behaviors added for WEGO in CM:BB and CM:AK are disappearing. For example, hunt is now move to contact. You can't to LOS without targeting.

Hunt was always move to contact. Uh, what's so hard about targeting at right clicking when you've checked all your LOSs?

Sorry, CMx2 has issues, but this list sounds like whining.

[SgtMuhammed]

Originally posted by Becket:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

Personally I am afraid to try RT mode. I can barely remember the commands in WEGO so I don't know where they made it more RT friendly.

Try it. It's really enjoyable. As long as you play at veteran level, the pauses merely convert the playstyle to a "user defined turn" system.

Elite removes the ability to pause, and that's pretty harsh. </font>

[Becket]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Sorry, CMx2 has issues, but this list sounds like whining.

Exactly. An ounce of tact goes a long, long way. (and yes...my responses lacked tact, and I regret losing my temper...lately I do a lot more drafting of posts, then hitting refresh rather than post, but this one slipped by my filters.)

[Becket]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Becket:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

Personally I am afraid to try RT mode. I can barely remember the commands in WEGO so I don't know where they made it more RT friendly.

Try it. It's really enjoyable. As long as you play at veteran level, the pauses merely convert the playstyle to a "user defined turn" system.

Elite removes the ability to pause, and that's pretty harsh. </font>

[tinjaw]

Well, you have succeeded. I abandon this thread to the flamers.

Just a few parting comments.

>>You never could do all that in one turn before, either. It'd be nice to be able to, but if it's ruining TB for you... lay off the amphetamine.

Ignoring the flame part, that is my point, if the time has been spent improving the existing engine instead of building a new one from scratch, those things could have been added years ago.

>>What? Unable to opeate an e-mail client or sumfink?

I can do so just fine. I can build and ISP from the ground up. But, excuse me, that is PBEM, not multiplayer. Not every LAN has an internet connection. Even setting up shared folders and pushing files around is not the same as the game sending the info over the wire itself.

>> First you bitch about the UI sucking, now you want more commands bolted on to it. Make up your mind.

First of all, I don't see the contradiction you apparently do. Second, a better UI could easily accommodate more options.

But you flamers are right about one thing, I am ****ing insane. I keep trying to have intelligent discussion on game related forums and expect mature responses.

I've had enough of this ****. I'll take my concerns off the forums and directly to Steve.

Out.

[RedDevil]

So far, it's a poor simulation of a wargame, and here I thought I was buying a wargame.