Bug - BRDM2 ATGM

[TBlaster]

BRDM 2's ATGM will not engage a Stryker. I tried firimg arc first, then manually targeting the stryker, but they won't engage. I haven't tried having them engage any other vehicle type yet.

[thewood]

That is why the US Army is investing in them. T72s and BRDMs won't shoot at them.

[Roter Stern]

The AT-3 ATGMs that the BRDM-2 fires have a 500m minimal range - so make sure you're not in the dead zone.

[Roter Stern]

Although now that I think of it, I did notice that ATGMs hesitate to attack the Strykers... perhaps because they are considered "light" vehicles, and hence not worth of using up a valuable ATGM in TacAI's eyes?

However if you order a manual target command, they should fire away quite happily.

[metalbrew]

Often, the TacAI doesn't shoot at BMPs/Strykers until that specific vehicle has fired at the AT team. As funny and ironic as that sounds it gets kind of old after the 20th time.

I don't wish the default behavior was to unload Javelins/RPG-14s at pickups, jeeps, and HMMWVs but it'd be great if they'd engage IFVs the way the engage heavy armor.

[JasonC]

Louch - yeah, except in reality nearly every AT model BRDM-2 on earth has been upgraded to fire AT-4 or AT-5 by now, so it is kinda silly to still have AT-3s on these things. The Syrians had those in 1973. I find it very hard to believe they haven't upgraded them at all in 34 years.

[TBlaster]

I didn't know there was a minimum range on the AT-3 of 500 meters. That would explain it. I guess the question to ask now is why am I not being told that information ingame? CM1 had this information. Am I expected to be a military expert and know all weapon ranges and capabilities in order to play this game?

This is a fairly fundamental feature, BTS, please fix!

[dima]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Louch - yeah, except in reality nearly every AT model BRDM-2 on earth has been upgraded to fire AT-4 or AT-5 by now, so it is kinda silly to still have AT-3s on these things. The Syrians had those in 1973. I find it very hard to believe they haven't upgraded them at all in 34 years.

Jason, Can you provide some references? Otherwise I don't think we can expect devs to change TOE just because we say so. We need to back up our claims

[rudel.dietrich]

When I did the TO&E I told BF that BDRMs should be armed with AT-3s and AT-5s and that both models should be placed in game

Was the AT-5 model not included?

If not I will suggest it

There was alot of data I gave to Steve and errors and ommisions are to be expected

It is also interesting to note that until 88-89 Syria used some models armed with AT-1 and AT-2 missles :eek:

[JasonC]

A fair request.

On the AT-5, and its initial deployment on BRDM-2s

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/at5spandrel.htm

BRDM-2 variants. Note the comment about Polish models using the AT-4, near the end

Syrian forces in Lebanon war in 1982 used AT-4, Milan, and RPG-7 and RPG-18

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_279.shtml

Notice, the AT-4 was only developed in the mid 1970s, and Syria had them almost immediately.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/atgm_vehicles/russian_atgm_vehicles.htm

Operative quote - "They were first seen in public used by Egyptian and Syrian forces against the Israelis in the 1973 Yom Kippur war, carrying AT-2 or AT-3 missiles, and have been steadily upgraded since then. The launcher can be raised for firing or lowered under armor protection if necessary, and the gunner stays under armor protection. By 2000, the AT-2-armed version was almost never seen, and the AT-3 armed version rare; most versions of this vehicle are armed with AT-4 or AT-5 missiles, and these versions can be armed with a mixture of both depending on the wishes of the crew."

[Pandur]

Often, the TacAI doesn't shoot at BMPs/Strykers until that specific vehicle has fired at the AT team.

exactly this i noticed also with the RPG gunners in a squad. not the ones as RPG team but the ones included in a squad.

i had 2 of them in a trench, hideing.

there where 2 BMP´s...the close one @120m and the far one at @180m.

since the closer one saw my hidden HQ squad in trench, i ordered one of these squads so stand up and gave em the BMP as target.

it took basicly 30 sekonds for the BMP to notice em and it started to peper the RPG gunner first. luckilie after the first volley the RPG shot and hit.

than i hid em again to wait until the 2nd BMP comes closer, as 180m are to far for my taste what a "sure" shot is.

after some good turns the BMP didnt moved and i took the chance with 3 rockets and 2 quads i ordered them to unhide and targeted the BMP. i watched this for 3 turns. they sat there with RED line to the BMP and did noting more.

i mean, either 180m is too far allready, or there is a serious flaw

[Kieme(ITA)]

I've had some troubles with AT equipped unconventional teams.

It usually takes ages before an AT team or an AT man in rifle team will fire its weapon (still having many rounds left) to a Stryker and such.

AI seems too conservative when it comes to AT munitions, in all cases... this could be right in general but when the best target you can have is a Stryker then it's the time to fire, no matter what.

This is a clear case in which some command (like the old "use main gun") might become handy especially if you consider the possibility of using missiles etc. (like on BMPs).

Actually you can order an RPG to shoot at a striker but you won't be sure if/when this will be done. 90% of the times the struker will see your team before it shot any round-

[Kwazydog]

Jason, interesting info and the newer model of the AT-5 version is certainly a possible to include in the future.

I will add though that we found no solid info that the Syrians are using the later AT-5 model (which is basically a completely different vehicle). Every photo we found of the Syrian ATGM BRDM was of the AT-3 model, inlcuded one recent photo from the Lebanon pullout.

The AT-3 version we are modelling in game is an upgraded model over the initial batch though (with better optics). I would like to see the later model included at some point though.

[Kwazydog]

Btw, I was meaning to add that it is also armed with AT-3C's, which is a pretty descent upgrade over the 70s era AT-3

[thelmia]

Saggers seem to work best at over 600 meters. Supposedly the minimum range is 500, but they seem to behave as if it's more than that. I can get them to fire manually out to over a kilometer. They hit about half the time so far. They have trouble with tanks, but kill APCs and light vehicles just fine.

They are of limited utility unless you have a long sightline and the team is well dug- in. Tanks will see them firing and shoot back immediately.