Syrian TO&E thread

[John Kettler]

Steve,

What you describe is the macro view of the issue, but what I was talking about is how the same principle is applied clear down to company level, thus squarely into the realm of things which affect CM:SF.

What I'm hoping to see reflected in the scenarios, ops, and campaigns are the concepts I previously described, wherein the various formations would reflect in their TO&E, manning status, combat ratings, HQ mods, fitness, fanaticism, etc., their position in the pecking order of the parent unit, with combat tasking reflecting these very real battlefield issues. I feel that this would add not only realism but richness to the Syrians/qua Syrians. Do the Syrians run the same Soviet style

readiness categories?

Regards,

John Kettler

[rudel.dietrich]

Something I want to clear up

Syria does not have much in the way of motorized infantry.

Its mechanized forces are have formations of BMPs and BTRs

I could not find any motorized divisions or mechanized divisions of pure BTRs

Most of the BTRs in mechanized forces are used for recon work or supply/weapon transport (along with trucks)

I could not find any cut and dry sources or how many regiments of BTRs exsisted and how many of BMPs exsisted.

My feeling and what little I can piece together seems to indicate that BMPs carry most of the fighing infantry while BTRs carry some infantry but mostly recon teams, Engineer teams, support teams (i.e. ATGMs, SAMs and other specialized teams)

A large chunk of Syrias BTRs are tied up with its armoured formations.

In fact I can make a semi safe guess that armoured formations do not contain BMPs but rather BTRs which do the recon work, contain support units and hold ground once the tanks are done.

Like Steve said, mostly battlefield taxis. I would assume that they would try and support the tanks as well relying on the tanks firepower to keep them safe and letting the troops mostly move on foot except when long distances need to be covered.

So based on what I have found Syria posesses little if any BTR formations purely for the purpose of Motorized infantry.

The concept of a Motorized Rifle Division never seemed to have caught on.

Infantry in Syria is either Mechanized or on foot.

You of course have recon and support units but I would not term those infantry.

Now whether or not those support formations contain MGs, I will do some more checking on.

[Battlefront.com]

I think we all need some clarifications here because the different terminology is going to drive us batty What I am using are generic terms, not necessarily what the Syrians or Soviets call their own forces. The generic terms, as generally accepted by gamers and military types alike, are as follows:

Armored - a divisional formation that consists mostly of tanks, but usually some infantry in tracked or wheeled AFVs or IFVs. These units tend towards tracked IFVs.

Mechanized - a divisional formation that consists mostly of infantry in tracked or wheeled AFVs or IFVs, but also usually with some tanks. These units tend towards wheeled AFVs. The exact mix determines how capable the division is of independent offensive maneuver warfare. The choice of armored vehicle is only one of the elements to look at, but in CM terms it is the most important.

Motorized - a divisional formation that consists mostly of infantry that is transported by truck and no armor. The trucks are almost always "pool" based and not organic to the fighting units themselves. This is not true for Armored or Mechanized, where the means of transport is organic to the Squad or weapons Team. These divisions tend to be defensive in nature because of their method of transportation. To make up for the lack of armor they have greater amounts of AT weapons and other support weapons such as MGs, mortars, and/or artillery.

Infantry - similar to motorized, but completely lacking in motorized transport capable of moving the division on its own without help from a higher level motor pool. These units are clearly designed for defensive missions only. They can be used offensively, but generally only in a supportive role for one of the other types and only for a traditional "breakthrough" operation (i.e. massed, purposeful assault on an established enemy frontline). Once the enemy's immediate frontline positions are breached, Infantry ceases to be useful because it lacks the mobility and combined arms to take on "exploitation" missions.

Other - there are specialized formations which are somewhat based on the previous categories. Things like Marines, Special Forces, Airborne, etc. And of course there are highly specialized units such as Engineers, Artillery (indepedent), etc. These aren't really relevant to our discusison here so let's please ignore them.

Now, within each of these types of divisions things are broken out into Brigades and/or Regiments. The exact nature is determined by the national doctrine in question. But in any case, these are the largest "maneuver" elements, with the division itself basically providing logistics support. Generally a Brigade/Regiment is made up of one single type of unit, such as Mechanized Infantry or Tank, not both. The next lower level is Battalion, and these too reflect the organization of their Brigade and do not vary at all (as far as I know) internally. If it is a Mech Infantry Battalion it does not have a Tank Company, for example. Next level down is Company, which also is uniformly of one particular type as defined above. Same at Platoon level, obviously.

There are plenty of variations within theme within a nation and from nation to nation, but the above is pretty accurate world wide for any nation that has a significant military force.

As this applies to the Syrians...

The Syrians have a fair number of Armored Divisions with tracked IFVs. They have a lesser number of Mechanized Divisions which favor wheeled AFVs. There are a TON of Infantry formations, and as Rudel says, not much in the way of Motorized. I think there are a few independent brigades of the latter, but I'd have to double check. The Reserves have all types, but favor Infantry. The Militia is Infantry only. There are also a number of independent Armored and Mechanized Brigades.

The general rule is that the bulk of the standing army is Armor and Mech, the bulk of the Reserves/Militia is Infantry. Both have some of the opposite types, but very few in proportion to the rest.

Steve

[rudel.dietrich]

There are quite a few reserve armoured formations as well.

They would use T-55s and older model T-62s

[Battlefront.com]

Correct. Here is a nice, detailed Order of Battle for the Syrian forces, circa 2003 (IIRC)

The Syrian Military: A Primer

by Richard M. Bennett

With a (non-reserve) strength of some 215,000 personnel, the core of the Syrian Army is headquartered in the capital and the majority of other combat units are deployed along an arc from northwest to southwest, facing the Golan Heights and Lebanon.

The Army Command in Damascus directly controls the Republican Guard Mechanized Division (an armored division in all but name), which is equipped with around 350 T-62/72 main battle tanks, 350 BMP-2/3 armored infantry fighting vehicles and BTR-60/70 armored personnel carriers. In addition, there are 50 BRDM-2 armored reconnaissance vehicles, 30 122mm 2S1 and 20 152mm 2S3 self-propelled artillery, 50 23mm ZSU-23-4 self-propelled air defense and 30 122mm BM-21 multiple rocket launchers. This unit always receives the latest and best equipment, such as the T-72M main battle tanks, BMP-3 armored infantry fighting vehicles and will be the first to be re-equipped with new self-propelled guns. Additionally the Army Command has direct control of several independent motorized infantry brigades, including the 'Desert Guard' and the elite 120th Mountain Infantry Brigade.

The heavily fortified defense zone between Damascus and the Golan Heights has grown to include two independent artillery brigades and two independent anti-tank brigades with up to 1,200 T-54/55 tanks in hull-down static defense positions. There are some 100 122mm M-31/37 and 50 152mm M-37 field guns in static defensive positions and up to 300 85mm M-44 and 100mm T-12 anti-tank guns, protected by large scale minefields and supported by massed anti-aircraft guns.

The Syrian Army's main war-fighting element comprises three corps formed in 1985 to give the Army more flexibility and to improve combat efficiency by decentralizing the command structure, absorbing at least some of the lessons learned during the Israeli invasion of the Lebanon in 1982.

1st Corps

The 1st Corps is headquartered in Damascus, with its main area of deployment being between the capital and the fortified zone and south to Der'a near the Jordanian border. Its principle units include the following:

• The 5th Armored Division, which includes the 17th and 96th Armored Brigades and the 112th Mechanized Brigade

• The 8th Armored Division, which includes the 62nd and 65th Armored Brigades and the 32nd Mechanized Brigade

• The 9th Armored Division, with the 43rd and 91st Armored Brigades and the 52nd Mechanized Brigade

• The 6th Armored Division, with the 12th and 98th Armored Brigades and the 11th Mechanized Brigades

• The 7th Mechanized Division, with the 58th and 68th Armored Brigades and the 78th Mechanized Brigade

The 1st Corps also has four independent special forces regiments, including two trained for heliborne commando operations against the Israeli SIGINT & Observation posts on Mount Hermon and elsewhere in the Golan Heights.

2nd Corps

The 2nd Corps, headquartered at Zebdani (Zabadan), commands the area north of Damascus, stretching as far as Homs and includes Syrian occupation forces in Lebanon. Its principal units are believed to include:

• The 1st Armored Division, with the 44th and 46th Armored Brigades and the 42nd Mechanized Brigade

• The 3rd Armored Division, with the 47th and 82nd Armored Brigades and the 132nd Mechanized Brigade

• The 11th Armored Division, with the 60th and 67th Armored Brigades and the 87th Mechanized Brigade

• The 4th Mechanized Division with the 1st Armored Brigade and the 61st and 89th Mechanized Brigades

• The 10th Mechanized Division, headquartered in Shtoura, Lebanon. Its main units are deployed to control the strategic Beirut-Damascus highway with the 123rd Mechanized Brigade near Yanta, the 51st Armored Brigade near Zahle in the Beqaa Valley and the 85th Armored Brigade, deployed around the complex of positions at Dahr al-Baidar.

Other major combat units known to be regularly deployed to eastern Lebanon are the 27th and 82nd Brigades from the 3rd Armored Division and the 87th Brigade from the 11th Armored Division, usually to the bases around Baalbek, Rayak airfield, Jub Jenin, and Rashaye.

There are five special forces regiments in the Lebanon, including the 5th SF, which is deployed in the central mountains protecting the numerous SIGINT, observation and radar bases. It is believed that the Special Forces in Lebanon also include a small number of covert units trained to penetrate deep behind the Israeli positions on the Golan Heights to disrupt the movement of reserve units moving up to the frontline and to assault the positions on Mount Hermon in concert with a heliborne commando attack.

3rd Corps

The last of the major formations, the 3rd Corps, formed in the late 1980's, is based in the north and covers Hama, the Turkish and Iraqi borders, the Mediterranean coastline and is tasked with protecting the complex of CBW and missile production and launch facilities. Headquartered in Aleppo, the 3rd Corps includes:

• The 2nd Reserve Armored Division, with the 14th and 15th Armored Brigades and the 19th Mechanized Brigade. The 2nd is also believed to operate as the main armored forces training unit. Other units under the control of this corps include four independent infantry brigades, one border guard brigade, one independent armored regiment, effectively a brigade group, and one special forces regiment.

• The Coastal Defense Brigade, which operates largely as an independent unit within the 3rd corps area, is headquartered in the naval base of Latakia with four Coastal Defense Battalions in Latakia, Banias, Hamidieh and Tartous. Each Battalion has four batteries of both the short range SSC-3 Styx and long range SSC-1B Sepal missile systems.

Syrian Reserves amount to some 300,000 soldiers, forming units which include the 2nd Armored Division in Aleppo, while the 12th and 13th Motorized Divisions would be formed from the best of the two armored brigades, two independent armored regiments, 30 infantry brigades and three artillery brigades. While the standard of training is reasonable, equipment is of very poor quality and limited in number.

Syrian armored divisions are structured along traditional Soviet Army lines, with the Armored Brigades each with three Tank Battalions and equipped with 300 T-62 M/K and T-72 main battle tanks and 50 BRDM-2 Recon.Vehicles. The Mechanized Infantry brigades each have some 300 BMP-1/2/3 armored infantry fighting vehicles and BTR-50/60/70 armored personnel carriers.

The mechanized divisions are also Soviet style units, similar in most respects to the armored divisions, except in the ratio of infantry to armor. Each has around 200 T-55/62/72 main battle tanks, 250 BMP armored infantry fighting vehicles and BTR151/60 armored personnel carriers, 50 BRDM armored reconnaissance, 30 122mm 2S1 self-propelled artillery, 30 23mm ZSU-23-4 self-propelled air defense and 20 122mm BM-21 multiple rocket launchers, while the artillery has more towed guns, 122mm D-30 and 130mm M-46.

The field artillery regiments each have 30 122mm 2S1 self-propelled artillery, while the air defense regiments attached to the armored divisions provide considerable cover with 30 ZSU-23-4 self-propelled guns and Batteries of SA-9 and SA-13 mobile surface-to-air missiles. The infantry units within all twelve front-line divisions have an effective anti-tank capability, with large numbers of AT-3, AT-4, AT-5, AT-7, AT-10 and AT-14 guided weapon systems.

[John Kettler]

Steve,

That's the best writeup on the subject I've seen to date. Clearly, this can be used to provide various contexts in which much lower level combat can take place.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

As for the various types of armored troop transports, according to one source, as of about 2005 the Syrians had the following available:

BTR-152...560

BTR-60...1000

BMP-1.....2450

BMP-2......100

BDRM-2...950

Other soruces I've got put the number of BMP-2s higher (~300) and BDRMs a little lower (~800). BTR are usually lumpped into one group so I can't really tell what proportions they think are running or not. And that is a critical point, too, since I read one source that said the BTR-152s are all largely inopperable. Another source claims 1600 BTRs without any BTR-152s.

In terms of how common something is, proportionally you'd likely see:

25 BMP-1

15 BTRs

8 BDRM

2 BMP-2

1 BMP-3

Most sources I've seen put the number of BMP-3 at just about 100, but Rudel's sources seem to put the number higher. Either way, we're planning on the BMP-3 going into the 1st Module, not the initial release.

The really interesting thing to note here is that you'd be two or perhaps three times as likely to see Syrian infantry in a BMP of some sort compared to a BTR of some sort. The difference between the chances is if the BTR-152 is still in use or if the BTR count of 1600 does not include 152s.

In any case, there is no Rarity system for CM:SF so the proportion thing is simply to get into the right frame of mind for CM:SF.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

The ratio of BMPs to BTRs is indeed remarkable and would've made most Soviet era and now Russian/CIS commanders green with envy. Glad the BMP-3 will be included eventually, and the fact that BTR-152s are still in the inventory was quite a surprise. If there'll be no rarity in CM:SF, is some equivalent going to come from pricing and use of type formations?

Regards,

John Kettler

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

As for the various types of armored troop transports, according to one source, as of about 2005 the Syrians had the following available:

BTR-152...560

BTR-60...1000

BMP-1.....2450

BMP-2......100

BDRM-2...950

Other soruces I've got put the number of BMP-2s higher (~300) and BDRMs a little lower (~800). BTR are usually lumpped into one group so I can't really tell what proportions they think are running or not. And that is a critical point, too, since I read one source that said the BTR-152s are all largely inopperable. Another source claims 1600 BTRs without any BTR-152s.

In terms of how common something is, proportionally you'd likely see:

25 BMP-1

15 BTRs

8 BDRM

2 BMP-2

1 BMP-3

Most sources I've seen put the number of BMP-3 at just about 100, but Rudel's sources seem to put the number higher. Either way, we're planning on the BMP-3 going into the 1st Module, not the initial release.

The really interesting thing to note here is that you'd be two or perhaps three times as likely to see Syrian infantry in a BMP of some sort compared to a BTR of some sort. The difference between the chances is if the BTR-152 is still in use or if the BTR count of 1600 does not include 152s.

In any case, there is no Rarity system for CM:SF so the proportion thing is simply to get into the right frame of mind for CM:SF.

Steve

My sources match up well with that.

Janes has everything a bit higher but Janes always over estimates.

The latest report I could get my hands on was for August 2006 and is usualy reliable.

It has quanities of almost every weapon used by a nation including what is estimated to be on order and some of those umm...off the record sort of deals that are done through the black market or terrorist organizations.

Anyways, he is that source averaged with a few others I like.

Number is () is what you have listed

Second number is mine

BTR-152...(560) 500

BTR-60...(1000) 1050 200 are on order

BMP-1.....(2450) 2250 Syria losses about 25 of these a month due to lack of spare parts, poor matinence, age, wrecks and just falling apart.

300 used are on order and huge quanities of spare parts to try and keep the huge mass of them running

BMP-2......(100) 150-200 A new shipment came on over the summer as part of that weapons for natural gas order

250 more are on order but are not going to make it in the near future

BDRM-2...(950) 900

Suffers the same problem as the BMP-1

Lack of matinence and age are taking a toll and not enough spare parts and trained personal to keep them all running.

So our numbers match up pretty well except for the BMP-2

Overall I have a few hundred less vehicles but that makes sense since as I said most of the fleet is falling apart and being canibilized for spare parts.

Overall that is the theme for the entire military.

Trying to keep 15-30 year old weapons and small arms in working order on a very limited budget and in massive quanities.

Only the SF and airborne and guards division can afford to keep their stuff up and running at a close to peak efficiency rate.

And this is good evidence that the breakdown and malfunction rate for Syrian hardware should be somewhat high.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Most sources I've seen put the number of BMP-3 at just about 100, but Rudel's sources seem to put the number higher. Either way, we're planning on the BMP-3 going into the 1st Module, not the initial release.

I actualy said between 80-90

100 more are on order but will probably never see delivery.

100 is close enough as a a few might have slipped through or Syria purchased the trial models they were given back at the begining of the decade.

[Battlefront.com]

Ah! Ok, I had it in my memory that the number of BMP-3s was around 200. I must have added the "on hand" with "on order" numbers together.

Thanks for the confirmation of the other numbers! Like I said, it doesn't really matter much for CM:SF because there is no Rarity system, but it does give a hint to scenario designers an idea of proportions of equipment on hand.

Since you're having fun checking my numbers, how about tanks?

T-72 (upgraded)... 122 (these have various non-standard improvements)

T-72/T-72M....... 1478

T-62 (all types).... 1000

T-54/T-55.......... 1100 (some upgraded to MV standard)

T-54/T-55.......... 2500 (these are static emplacements)

Like the previos equipment, many of these are of questionable readiness for combt. However, these numbers supposedly have rulled out "deadlined" equipment.

Steve

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Ah! Ok, I had it in my memory that the number of BMP-3s was around 200. I must have added the "on hand" with "on order" numbers together.

Thanks for the confirmation of the other numbers! Like I said, it doesn't really matter much for CM:SF because there is no Rarity system, but it does give a hint to scenario designers an idea of proportions of equipment on hand.

Since you're having fun checking my numbers, how about tanks?

T-72 (upgraded)... 122 (these have various non-standard improvements)

T-72/T-72M....... 1478

T-62 (all types).... 1000

T-54/T-55.......... 1100 (some upgraded to MV standard)

T-54/T-55.......... 2500 (these are static emplacements)

Like the previos equipment, many of these are of questionable readiness for combt. However, these numbers supposedly have rulled out "deadlined" equipment.

Steve

Time to get this thread rolling along again.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.

Anyways, here is the data I have on tanks.

T-72 (upgraded)... (122) (these have various non-standard improvements)

300

I have over twice as many as you list in my sources.

But I am not sure what constitutes 'upgraded'

Some of them appaer to be half upgraded. I.E. they have thermal optics and laser rangefinders but no ERA tiles.

Some have the tiles and laser range finders but no thermal optics.

etc etc

I know the engine can put random 'stuff' onto the tanks model and can randomly assign gear and weapons to infantry.

Can it randomly assign mods and upgrades to vehicles?

If so that would be a good way to handle this problem.

If not...

I would venture to say Syrian has about 200 of the T-72MIS variant or something close to it.

And about 100 of the T-72AV variant, which is the best tank in its inventory.

All ~300 or so of these tanks are within the Guards armoured formation.

T-72/T-72M....... (1478)

T-72A - 400

T-72B - 400

T-72G - 550

T-72M - 250

~1600 total

T-62 (all types).... (1000)

T-62 - 400

Given out to resereve armour formations

T-62M - 400

T-62MV - 300

1110 total

The M and MV model are given out to front line armour units.

Most armoued divisions have a 2:1 T-72 to T-62 ratio.

Not sure what the different roles are but they are kept in different formations.

T-54/T-55.......... (1100) (some upgraded to MV standard)

T-55A - 1600

About half these are tied up with reserve formations.

The other 800 are scattered all over the country in secert warehouses and armouries and in mothballed shape. They will be activated (or it will be tried ) upon mobilization and then given out to static infantry formations to fight in local defese.

Probably on a platoon scale and company size in larger cities and towns.

My information shows a full 1/3 are beyond repair and those that are left are in very very poor shape.

The crews are those that have armour training and then went back to civilian life.

They know how to work the tank but most of that they can do is get the tank running, get orders to move to one location, and fight from that spot.

Complex move orders would probably break down the tank and complex attack orders would be beyond the crews capacity.

The 800 active tanks with Syrias reserves are also in poor shape but not as bad.

They lose about 15 a month due to poor matienece and not many spare parts.

These are usualy towed and placed into static enplacements.

All still rolling or that can be moved under their own engines are the A varient.

All have the D10T79 Gun and a top mounted 12.7mm HMG

T-54/T-55.......... (2500)

Static T-55/T-54

My data shows about 1700 which is alot less than yours...

I think the reason is that mine takes into account that alot of the static tanks are ripped apart for spare parts or are in such poor shape that their weapons no longer even work but are left in place more for 'show'

About 700 of these sit facing the Golan heights.

250 are around the southern approach to Damascus

150 more are on the other appraoches to the city

300 have been hauled out to the west to face aveneues of approach from Iraq.

The rest are facing north towards Turkey and around other major cities and towns.

Most at the baseline T-55/T-54 with old guns and old ammo.

Most of these would have very poor 'crews' but due to the nature of their locations and their hull down state would be tough to crack.

Most are encased in wood or concrete and only have a small opening for the crew to see through and the gun barrel to poke through.

Finally my records say that 300 T-55AMV models exsist in Syria.

I am not sure if these are given to reserve units or frontline units...

Probably front line units to round out their T-72s and T-62s

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks Rudel!

I meant to post this information that Dan recently found:

T-72 - 300

T-72M - 600

T-72M1 - 350

T-72 Turms – 122

That's a few hundred less than what you have. We also found the number of Ms to be larger than earlier exports (which were supposedly upgraded to the M standard). That means our "T-72" count includes the A, B, and G versions that were not upgraded.

As for the Turms version, this is what we were able to find out about it:

The upgrade includes installing Galileo's Tank Universal Reconfiguration Modular System T-series tank (TURMS-T) fire-control system (FCS).TURMS-T is a modular third-generation computerised day/ thermal FCS especially developed for the fire-control modernisation/ upgrade of Russian-originated T-family tanks.

The system includes gunner's and commander's stabilised sights (both with second-generation infra-red cameras) and a new turret-management computer and set of sensors, so that the gun stabilisation and accuracy is improved to the level of latest-generation tanks, even in move-to-move firing.

The upgrade includes installing new armour, likely second generation ERA, and an attachment for the Russian KBP Instrument Design Bureau 9K119 Reflecks (AT-11) ATGM, which is fired through the T-72's 125mm smoothbore main gun. The armour and missile attachment are supplied by undisclosed subcontractors to Galileo. The upgrade programme began last year, with all of the systems now delivered to Syria. Installation of the systems is being conducted in-country, with about half of the T-72s modernised to date.

I'll have more comments about your new informatoin soon.

Steve

[rudel.dietrich]

The T-72 situation is a bit of a mess.

I have about 300 that fall into hard variants and then several hundred more that look like they had a few upgrades but do not fall into any variant.

It is confusing and I am not sure how to model is in the game.

Maybe allow the player and scenario designer to purchase a T-72 Upgraded

The price would fall somewhere between a regular T-72 and a T-72 MIS or AV

Then the engine would randomly assign some upgrades to this tank.

The player could luck out and get some good ones and lots of them or get just a handful of not so useful ones.

Not sure if that is possible, but that is how I would do it.

It looks like anything above the G model can fire AT-11s

The T-62MV can fire the AT-12

The T-55AMV can fire the AT-10

Syria has quanities of all these missles and part of their armour doctrine is using them in defensive posistion from very long ranges to soften up an oncoming force before switiching over to main gun rounds.

[rudel.dietrich]

I also think we are running into a little bit of confusion over the variant names.

Is the T-72M1 the T-72M1S that I listed?

Those 400 'T-72'

Are those baseline models or T-72A, T-72B or T-72G or something completly different?

It would help if Dan could be a little more specific.

Does the Turms variant go under a different name?

Maybe the T-72AV version that I have listed?

We need to clear up the confusion a little to try and get the purchase rarity correct and try and pin down as accuratly as possible what is actualy in country.

It also does not help matters much that export variants and Russian variants have differnt designations ans the Syrians have created some unique models and the Russians gave them a designation before selling them.

[rudel.dietrich]

Steve, one more question.

Before I invest any significant time into it.

Are you planning on adding in ANY Syrian aircraft/helo gunships?

Even for Red vs Red?

If so then I will start finding some info.

If not then I will not bother

Thanks

[ December 09, 2006, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

[John Kettler]

Steve,

The TURMS-T looks downright scary. It would be even worse if coupled with proper ammo. Any word on that? While steel would be plenty, IMO, to wreck Strykers and the like, I'd expect tungsten carbide or DU would be needed to defeat the M1A2 via KE attack, with HEAT another matter altogether.

rudel.dietrich,

The plethora of T-72 types is indeed enough to induce madness. Don't know how you avoid it. I do hope provisions are made for Syrian tacair and gunships. This creates lots of wonderful possibilities in the Red on Red case, but for the helo gunships at least in the Blue on

Red case, would seem to allow for annoying "drop-in" visitors. After all, there are plenty of buildings in any major city in which a helicopter could easily be stowed fully fueled and armed, then brought into play in a crisis. This is exactly what I'd do as the Syrians: disperse my helicopter force to a series of sites, rather than allowing them to be blasted by CBUs while on the hardstands. Add to this that the U.S. Army's hardly had any experience being under air attack since WW II, and you have a real shocker potentially available to the Syrians. We're used to totally owning the air, and it's not trivial to defeat a helo operating down in the weeds. Indeed, the U.S. J-CATCH (Joint Counter to Attack Helicopters) study found that helos doing this, especially if missile armed, were dangerous threats even to fixed wing aircraft. Why? They frequently got detection first, thus first fire, against a highly exposed target which couldn't see them because of visual and radar clutter. Also, the near all aspect gun envelope for the HIND D/E

attack helos made things tough, too, because American fighters could only attack head on, whereas the HIND was a threat from practically any angle, made worse by adding IR dogfight missiles such as the AA-8 APHID. J-CATCH is why even the OH-58 Kiowa carries Stinger missiles.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

I also think we are running into a little bit of confusion over the variant names.

Is the T-72M1 the T-72M1S that I listed?

Those 400 'T-72'

Are those baseline models or T-72A, T-72B or T-72G or something completly different?

It would help if Dan could be a little more specific.

Does the Turms variant go under a different name?

Maybe the T-72AV version that I have listed?

Hi Rudel! Yes, working out exactly that the Syrians have is a problem, particularly as the Russians exported vehicles that were configured differently to what they use under their own designations. From what I could confirm, the Syrians likely have...

T-72 'early' - Original model of the T-72 with optic sight.

T-72M - Export version of the base T-72 but include TPD-K1 FCS off of T-72A. Armor is as per T-72M though.

T-72M 'upgraded' - Export version as above but has been upgrade towards M1 standards. This includes replacing gill armor with skirts, smoke launchers, as well as extra armor welded to front hull.

T-72M1 - True export version of T-72A including turret armor quartz/steel insert.

T-72 'Turms' - This is a Syrian upgrade which we are currently calling turms as we don’t know the official designation, with around 122 being converted. Upgrades FCS, likely second generation reactive armor, etc, most likely placed on T-72M1's. Pretty serious upgrade overall.

Reactive armor (T-72AV) - A reasonable portion of the Syrian T-72s have received reactive armor upgrades of one sort or another, and we likely plan to place 1st generation reactive armor on most of the versions above as an option.

That’s currently what we are heading towards but as always we are certainly open to new info. Ive never actually heard of the T-71MIS designation, so I cant really comment on that one, but we are probably thinking of the same vehicle under different designations. I have read of a T-72S though which is an export version of the T-72B I believe, including an upgraded FCS and engine, but as the Syrians only ordered the M1's from Poland in the early 90's and their cash flow went in the wrong direction after that, I found it unlikely that they have many/any of these available (and couldn’t find any reference to them having any).

[ December 09, 2006, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Battlefront.com]

Hi Rudel,

No Red aircraft at all, not even red on red. The reason for that is blue on blue and red on red is simply an extra feature, not one we are specifically catering the game towards. Maybe we might add some of this stuff in future Modules, but not for the initial release.

And yes, there is a LOT of confusion about the various different models of Soviet era tanks out there. Hopefully Dan's info helped out some, if not we can work through it together

Steve

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Hi Rudel! Yes, working out exactly that the Syrians have is a problem, particularly as the Russians exported vehicles that were configured differently to what they use under their own designations. From what I could confirm, the Syrians likely have...

T-72 'early' - Original model of the T-72 with optic sight.

T-72M - Export version of the base T-72 but include TPD-K1 FCS off of T-72A. Armor is as per T-72M though.

T-72M 'upgraded' - Export version as above but has been upgrade towards M1 standards. This includes replacing gill armor with skirts, smoke launchers, as well as extra armor welded to front hull.

T-72M1 - True export version of T-72A including turret armor quartz/steel insert.

T-72 'Turms' - This is a Syrian upgrade which we are currently calling turms as we don’t know the official designation, with around 122 being converted. Upgrades FCS, likely second generation reactive armor, etc, most likely placed on T-72M1's. Pretty serious upgrade overall.

Reactive armor (T-72AV) - A reasonable portion of the Syrian T-72s have received reactive armor upgrades of one sort or another, and we likely plan to place 1st generation reactive armor on most of the versions above as an option.

I would strongly compel you guys to split up T-72 models (and all tank models) into each kind of variant instead of having a generic 'early' model.

The difference between a baseline T-72 and a T-72G are pretty significant.

From what I can tell, Syria does not field any baseline models as all of them have either been purchased or upgraded to at least the A model.

The A model has a laser range finder, very early computer fire control system, a little more armour, side skirts and electronic smoke launcher.

The B model has thicker front armour and got the name 'Dolly Parton' for obvious reasons.

It also has some very early composite armour.

Syrian B models CANNOT fire ATGMs so these are actualy T-72B1 models.

The G model has the same armour as the A model (thus less than the B model)

But has a second generation computer fire control system and laser rangefinder.

Also has a better engine for a little more speed and greatly improved acceleration.

Also uses less fuel which is pretty useless in CM terms.

T-72M1S

Has the armour upgrade of the B model, with a third generation fire control system and laster range finder.

Has more composite armour than the B version for better HEAT protection.

Can fire the AT-11 ATGM

Basicly a best of both worlds from the B and G model.

The Finnish army currently uses these and I think uses the same naming scheme.

I know we have some Fins on this forum, I would ask them about it for more details.

T-72AV

Early generation ERA tiles

Mid 90s fire control system (i.e. pretty good), pretty good laser range finder and same armour as the B version.

Can fire AT-11 ATGM missles.

The Turms model I cannot find much about besides some info from the Italian firm that does the upgrade.

As far as I can tell it is simply a fire control computer update.

I am not sure which model of tank they are trying to upgrade however which would clue me in as to what kind of armour it has and if it should have ERA cells.

I e-mailed a friend in the goverment and he is going to get back to me on what the US militaries designation is going to be for the tank.

[rudel.dietrich]

And for clarity sake.

Here is a quick list of all tank models I have in my notes and which branch of service you would find them in.

T-54B - None of these are mobile, all have been buried in static defense.

T-55A - Found only in reserve armoued formations and at a platoon level with militia units upon mobilization.

T-55AMV - Probably found in frontline mechanized formations only. I do not think they exist in armoured divisions.

T-62 - Baseline model only found in reserve formations.

T-62M - Only found in reserve formations and in some frontline mechanized units.

T-62MV - Found in frontline armoured divisions.

T-72A - Mostly in mechanized formations and a few armoured divisions

T-72B - Mostly in armoured divisions and a few mechanized formations.

T-72G - Mostly in armoured divisions and a few mechanized formations.

T-72M1S - Found in frontline armoured divisions.

T-72AV - Found only in the Guards division.

[Kwazydog]

Hi Rudel

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

I would strongly compel you guys to split up T-72 models (and all tank models) into each kind of variant instead of having a generic 'early' model.

Lets call it origional then, basically I was referring too the origional export model of the T-72 which went into production in 1975 with an optic sight, not a generic vehicle as such. Either way though it makes sense that this vehicle would be pretty much out of server by now, so we will likely scratch it off of the list It was out lowest prioroty T-72 as it appeared that they had few of them left and require an alteration to the turrets model.

The A model has a laser range finder, very early computer fire control system, a little more armour, side skirts and electronic smoke launcher.

This is where some confusion begins unfortunately though. As I understand it the Syrians have the T-72M (unofficially referred to as the T-72G I believe), not the T-72A. The T-72M is actually based on the base T-72 (with regards to armor) but has the fire control system off of the T-72A. When it shipped it didnt have the skirt armor, launchers or extra hull armor. In the late 80's an upgrade was offered to bring it up too this standard though (basically a T-72m1 without the additional turret armor), but we are assuming that not all vehicles would have gone through this process.

In the early 90's the Syrians put in an order for 300+ T-72M1s (the last they would recieved) which is basically the T-72A including the upgraded front turret armor, skirts, launchers, etc. Even though much hardware that was ordered during this time was never delivered due to financial issues, the Slovakians delivered 260 of these vehicles in '92 with 58 more being delivered in '93. The export version of the T-72B was offered in 1987, known as the T-72S. As the Syrians put in an order for the M1s in the early 90's though it seems unlikely that they ever aquired any of these, likely due to financial reasons. After this point though I can find no further reference to them purchasing further models of the T-72. In '98 they appears to turn their attention to the T-80 for future purchases. I still cant find any reference to a T-72M1s type vehicle, maybe its a finish only designation?

So as best I can tell the T-72 models that the Syrians have actually purchased are the T-72, T-72M and T-72M1. There is documentation that they have upgraded these in various ways though including reactive armor kits and the turms upgrade.

The Turms upgrade is basically bringing the T-72 up to the T-72M3 standard and is likely being built onto the newer M1 vehicles.

The upgrade includes installing Galileo's Tank Universal Reconfiguration Modular System T-series tank (TURMS-T) fire-control system (FCS).TURMS-T is a modular third-generation computerised day/ thermal FCS especially developed for the fire-control modernisation/ upgrade of Russian-originated T-family tanks.

The system includes gunner's and commander's stabilised sights (both with second-generation infra-red cameras) and a new turret-management computer and set of sensors, so that the gun stabilisation and accuracy is improved to the level of latest-generation tanks, even in move-to-move firing.

The upgrade includes installing new armour and an attachment for the Russian KBP Instrument Design Bureau 9K119 Reflecks (AT-11) ATGM, which is fired through the T-72's 125mm smoothbore main gun. The armour and missile attachment are supplied by undisclosed subcontractors to Galileo. The upgrade programme began last year, with all of the systems now delivered to Syria. Installation of the systems is being conducted in-country, with about half of the T-72s modernised to date.

Hope that might help clarify what we have currently found

Dan

[ December 10, 2006, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[civdiv]

Are you going to model the 'Jindi-rokim-tisa'? That's the 9th man in an 8 man Syrian rifle squad. He is the 'comfort' soldier and usually the smallest/weakest/youngest soldier in the squad. His duties should be self-explanitory. And no, I am not making this up. It's actually an Egyptian thing, but I wouldn't be suprised if Syria had something similar.

Different cultures, different customs.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

The Finnish army currently uses these and I think uses the same naming scheme.

I know we have some Fins on this forum, I would ask them about it for more details.

Finnish T-72s are no longer in active service.

for the differences between various T-72 models i'd try making a quick search at tank-net.org. there should be numerous discussions about the differences between different variants.

[rudel.dietrich]

My understanding is that Syria purchased very few of the export models and instead went with the straight Soviet models.