Syrian TO&E thread

[Battlefront.com]

Cool stuff!

Steve

[hellfish]

Sweet. I really dig this research you're doing.

[rudel.dietrich]

Mechanized infantry

Even though it is pretty outdated, the Syrian mechanized divisions are the bulk of their offensive and defensive regular army.

Comprising three divisions these forces are a mix of armour and armoured infantry.

A basic company is thus

The company HQ is 6 men and uses a command variant of the BMP-1.

The BMP is outfitted with radio gear and its main purpose of course is to cordinate and control the company.

A basic mech squad is really no different from a regular infantry squad.

7 men, 1 LMG one RPG.

AKMs, RPK SAWs, RPG-7V

Only difference I could find is that ammo loads were higher since I assume extra ammo is stored in the BMP.

The BMP is your run of the mill BMP-1

Armed with a 73mm smoothbore 2A20 gun

Ammo loadout was almost the same among all my sources.

40 HEAT rounds.

ALL BMPs are armed with the AT-3 Maltmuka missle.

6 missles are carried.

A platoon is three squads and three BMPs.

So along with the command squad that is 13 squads and 13 vehicles.

Every mech company also has a support platoon.

This includes the following.

Two 82mm mortar section (a total of four mortars)

OR

Two 120mm mortars

Each section or 120mm mortar has its own BMP

Ammo load is 50 82mm rounds

OR

40 120 mm rounds

That sounds like alot of mortar rounds to me...

Anyone have an opinion?

Three ATGM teams with AT-3 or AT-4 ATGMs

Two infantry SAM teams with SA-7 or SA-14 missles.

These share two more BMPs

So to sum it up

1x 6 man command squad

1x Command BMP

3x mech platoons

Each platoon is 3 seven man squads and 3 BMPs

Support platoon is

4x 82mm mortars in two sections

OR

2x 120mm mortars

2x BMPs

3x ATGM teams (three men each)

2x Infantry SAM teams (two men each)

2x BMPs

Now for the good news for fans of BMPs

Syria has in its possesion around 375 BMP-2s and 60-80 BMP-3s

The Guards Armoured division has the pleasure of use of all the BMP-2s.

The Airborne division from what I understand if it was to be used in a ground war a portion of its forces would have access to the BMP-3s

A BMP-2 has a 30mm autocannon and uses the Konkurs-M missle.

The BMP-3 has a 100mm cannon, a 30mm autocannon and three machine guns.

And as far as I can tell uses the same missle as the Russian version. The 9M117-3 Bashnya missle (AT-10 Svir).

Syria posessing the BMP-3 came as a minor shock to me, I am going to keep digging and verify that is it is indeed true.

But it looks like that a portion of the Syrian forces get to ride around in the Mercedes Benz of IFVs.

I will touch on the squad makeup at a later date when I detail the airborne forces.

Here is how a Syrian Mechanized batallion is organized.

It is three companies like I mentioned, along with one support company.

The support company breaks down when the batallion does and each platoon then joins a mech company.

It is also assigned 1-2 recon platoon (my sources did not agree on a number)

A recon platoon is 3 recon teams and 2 APCs

1 ATGM is also included which I found odd, I have trouble believing that.

A recon team is 4 men armed with AKMs and gernades. No RPG

I found one source that indicated a sniper was included with the recon platoon.

One two man ATGM is what the source listed for the recon platoon.

I am going to examine this furthur since I did not find much good info on this.

Artillary and AA support are done at a regimental level and are probably outside the scope of the game.

[John Kettler]

Good stuff! Here's some crosscheck data.

If the normal Russian equipment pattern is followed, then the grenade issue will be two per man, generally F-1 "lemon" variety or its replacement. Accord to Isby (infra, pp. 428-429), Russian troops carry frag and antitank grenades. The antitank grenades are in addition to the squad RPG-7. Smoke and other types, such as CS, are available as needed. There is a very nasty large RGO defensive grenade (100 meter radius) which was just coming into Russian service in 1989. This should be given serious consideration, IMO, for Syrian units defending from prepared positions, for that is what it's for.

Do the Syrians use the BG-15 M-203skiy?

AK-47 equipped troops carry 300 rounds per man total and if I'm interpreting Suvorov (Rezun) correctly (THE "LIBERATORS, p. 165; he commanded a MR company during the Czech invasion) the RPKs or whatever you have for SAWs have 1000 rounds apiece.

If there's a BTR-60/70 or what have you in the picture, then be sure to include the following over and above what the men are carrying.

1 x RPG-7 mit 10 projectiles

20 x F-1 (or later) grenade

Dropped 1 x SGMB MG (local defense?) w/ 2000 rounds since these were found only on early model

BTR-60P and PK. Per Isby's WEAPONS & TACTICS OF THE SOVIET ARMY (p. 171 et seq.), though, 12.7mm Dushka/NSV and 14.5mm KPVT equipped vehicles carry 500 rounds per gun, with 2000 rounds for the 7.62mm co-ax MG.

Normal SVD issue scale for line MR infantry units is one SVD per platoon (my threat analyst memory and Isby, p. 161), but bear in mind that whoever has the SVD has no AK. The SVD man (Isby, p. 422) is carrying 140 rounds for his weapon, whose magazine holds ten rounds. For further excitement, and possibly mirroring the proliferation of SVDs and the like in Iraq, on p. 423 Isby notes reports from Afghanistan that the Russians tripled SVD issue in MR and VDV companies, sometimes putting all of the snipers in one squad. Urk!

BTW, their snipers, while certainly not trained to our standards, are handpicked based on DOSAAF performance and get 45-60 days of in unit training; some units have sniper schools. They are much better trained than

standard infantrymen and would seem to be better than the old CM sharpshooter, but not snipers in

the American/British/German/? SpecOps sense.

Both Isby and I agree with Kwazydog's comment about why an RPG-7 is included in ATGM teams. Minimum range on MCLOS weapons like the AT-3 was a very real tactical-technical issue, and there was nothing like having a backup weapon if the newfangled ATGM got damaged or broke down.

Regards,

John Kettler

[rudel.dietrich]

Those small arms ammo loads seem high. That is ALOT of 7.62 to haul around.

From what I can tell Syria uses the 75 round drum for its RPKs

That is 13 drums!

300 rounds for an AKM probably means 5 magazines and 150 loose rounds.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Do the Syrians use the BG-15

For special forces and airborned units, yes they do.

They exclusivly use the AK-74 each squad has a man with an underslug GP-25.

I will touch of these later.

[hellfish]

Are the mortar team's BMPs possibly really MT-LBs? I've never heard of a BMP being used to tow mortars (like the 120mm). The ammo loadouts do sound realistic, though.

[John Kettler]

rudel.dietrich,

Presumably, you're talking about what the men carry

themselves, right, and not the loads on the BTRs/BMPs? I would imagine the RPK's ammo is spread out among the squad members, since otherwise, there's no way the RPK section could keep up with the rest of the squad. Those aren't stubby AK cartridges but instead the same long heavy rifle cartridge the Mosin Nagant used to fire.

For comparison, take a look at the WW II load of a U.S. paratrooper. Not only did he have his weapons, ammo, water and rations, but he was also carrying a 60mm mortar round, one or two BAR clips, explosives, a Hawkens AT mine, etc. Remember the complete load recitation the soldier gave before the D-Day drop in BoB? That's what I'm talking about.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

Rudel,

I suspect John stumbled upon unit ammo allocations per weapon, not per man in the sense of what he carries. We ran into this quite often with our WWII TO&E research. Usually 1/2 was carried into combat with the remainder was kept in the Company supply "train". So that would mean 6 RPK drums carried into combat and 5 held in reserve. 5 mags carried into combat (1 in gun, 4 in pouch) and loose ammo of almost equal amount kept in a box somewhere. This appears to jibe with your information.

I've got ammo pouches from many Warsaw Block countries and with 7.62 weapons they tended to have 1 in the weapon and 3 or 4 in a single pouch. That's it. PPsH would have one drum in the gun and one on the belt (150 rounds total). In fact, the ~150 rounds per soldier is a fairly consistent official "rifle" ammo load throughout the 20th century regardless of weapon and nationality.

Steve

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

Are the mortar team's BMPs possibly really MT-LBs? I've never heard of a BMP being used to tow mortars (like the 120mm). The ammo loadouts do sound realistic, though.

I will look into it. I have been reading so much this afternoon that I forgot how big a 120mm realy is and did not even consider the possibility that it was towed.

My feeling is that it is probably some sort of truck that handles the mortar teams.

An 82mm and 120mm mortar have some range to them and trucks would have no problem keeping up with a BMP in the desert or on a road.

I will look into it more.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

rudel.dietrich,

Presumably, you're talking about what the men carry

themselves, right, and not the loads on the BTRs/BMPs? I would imagine the RPK's ammo is spread out among the squad members, since otherwise, there's no way the RPK section could keep up with the rest of the squad. Those aren't stubby AK cartridges but instead the same long heavy rifle cartridge the Mosin Nagant used to fire.

For comparison, take a look at the WW II load of a U.S. paratrooper. Not only did he have his weapons, ammo, water and rations, but he was also carrying a 60mm mortar round, one or two BAR clips, explosives, a Hawkens AT mine, etc. Remember the complete load recitation the soldier gave before the D-Day drop in BoB? That's what I'm talking about.

Regards,

John Kettler

BMPs would carry some extra ammo of course.

But 13 drums of ammo for a RPK sounds very excessive. And from what I can tell the LMG gunner and his assisant handle the ammo exclusivly.

As these are Syrians we are talking about.

I am not trying to be racist here or overgeneralize, but these men would probably come from very poor farms and villages and be underfed and smaller and weaker than your typical western soldier.

Military training would improve them some but their fitness is not going to be what a western soldiers would be.

I do not see them carrying that much ammo. But I am open to any and all research into the matter since it is a very important issue.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Rudel,

I suspect John stumbled upon unit ammo allocations per weapon, not per man in the sense of what he carries. We ran into this quite often with our WWII TO&E research. Usually 1/2 was carried into combat with the remainder was kept in the Company supply "train". So that would mean 6 RPK drums carried into combat and 5 held in reserve. 5 mags carried into combat (1 in gun, 4 in pouch) and loose ammo of almost equal amount kept in a box somewhere. This appears to jibe with your information.

I've got ammo pouches from many Warsaw Block countries and with 7.62 weapons they tended to have 1 in the weapon and 3 or 4 in a single pouch. That's it. PPsH would have one drum in the gun and one on the belt (150 rounds total). In fact, the ~150 rounds per soldier is a fairly consistent official "rifle" ammo load throughout the 20th century regardless of weapon and nationality.

Steve

That makes sense.

[Battlefront.com]

Rudel,

I am not trying to be racist here or overgeneralize, but these men would probably come from very poor farms and villages and be underfed and smaller and weaker than your typical western soldier.

Nobody should take offense to this. It is a biological fact that persons with more ample food supplies and a better standard of living will grow to be bigger than those who have lower of each. In WWII the American soldiers were known to be giants compared to Europeans since many lived in cities while (at the time) a larger portion of Americans came from mechanized countryside. As the old British saying went at the time, "over fed, over sexed, and over here"

A funny uniform story (just to get a little off track!)... I recently received a Spanish Foreign Legion uniform from the early 1970s. I've got several others from this time period as well. The average American 10 year old (not the overweight ones!!) could not fit into these uniforms, yet Spain's elite soldiers did. Why? Because Spain was still trying to get its act together since its Civil War. Standard of living was extremely low compared to the rest of Europe, so was their diet and level of education. It is therefore not surprising that Spaniards were on average smaller. But now... 1-2 generations later, I don't even think they make uniforms that small any more! And why is that? Spain's economy and stanard of living has come up in a big way since the 1960s and 1970s.

Anyway, I digress

Steve

[hellfish]

Out of curiosity, do the Syrians organize their mech divisions like the Soviets - with two BTR regiments, a BMP regiment and a tank regiment (plus a seperate tank battalion)?

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

Out of curiosity, do the Syrians organize their mech divisions like the Soviets - with two BTR regiments, a BMP regiment and a tank regiment (plus a seperate tank battalion)?

Best I can tell is

2 Armoured brigages

2 Mechanized brigades that both use BMPs

1 artillery regiment broken into 4 batallions

Around 11,000 men

I am still trying to divine the purpose of the BTR in the Syrian battle plan.

I think their armoured diviions carry their infantry in BTRs. But I am not completly sure.

It seems to me they are mostly used for recon, hauling supply and transporting men in non battle situations in mechanzied divisions.

Many have been converted to recon work and command vehicles.

They have some 2,300 odd BMPs

~1,700 BTRs of all types.

[ September 02, 2006, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

[John Kettler]

Steve,

While I take your point about diet and such, the books I've read are full of accounts of small, wiry natives, be they Afghanis, Kachins, Vietnamese or what have you marching and hill climbing their big, well fed Western confreres right into the ground through a lifetime in theater and the daily needs to be tough, hardy and resilient. Where time and again, our guys were flopping like fish on a riverbank, the locals were barely even breathing hard. Recall, too, the Japanese gave us one hell of a fight on Guadalcanal while semistarved and massively disease ridden.

Steve and rudel.dietrich,

On a different note, I simply must comment on the splendid irony that per Suvorov in 1968 the only Russian units which had BMPs and BTRs at TO&E levels were GSFG in Germany (and similar) and the "court" units

(e.g. Taman Guards) in Moscow and a few military districts. Suvorov's MR regiment had its 40 BTR-60PKs only because it was the MD's "court" unit; most had none and depended on the autocolonna of trucks taken from the civilian economy. What's interesting is that practically the entire Russian interior was stripped of tanks and APCs to lavishly equip Egypt, Syria, other Warsaw Pact, et al. This turned out to be less than optimal in 1967, and the Dneiper extravaganza

basically ruined 12,000 more tanks. BTW, Suvorov is very clear that he's not talking ammo in the trains, for in his book, p. 165, the expression "on his person" is used explicitly, thus 300 cartridges of AK-47 for the infantryman and 1000

cartridges for the RPK. Has anyone ever figured out how many rounds those bandolier festooned, dual ammo box carrying MG-42 LMG crews carried?

The Russian name for the AT-3 SAGGER is Malyutka,

which I believe is "little Malya."

Regards,

John Kettler

[rudel.dietrich]

I did alot more looking today and the mortars in a mech company look like they are carried/towed by a truck.

Armoured against small arms fire and mounting a 7.62mm machine gun.

The Syrians appear to have a very nice (for a 2nd rate military) transport and supply system.

Lots of trucks and light APCs doing alot of hauling.

Unfortunatly for them they would be slaughted by the US Air force and naval aviation in the course of a real war.

I am going to do armoured forces a little bit later tonight

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks again for all the good work Rudel! Don't concern yourself too much with logistics and other units that not supposed to be in up close and personal combat. We won't be including such formations so no sense doing the research. Well, except to satisfy curiosity

John,

Yup... size isn't important, or so they say

As for WWII German LMGs, I can't remember off the top of my head what the right number is, but a quick check of one handy book puts it at a little over 1000 rounds. This seems about right. The gunner had 50 in the gun and the assistant gunner carried four boxes (two per hand) with 250 rounds in each. In practice the ammo was usually divided up between squad members to even out the load and to allow the assistant gunner a chance to add his rifle to the firepower mix. HMG units carried only 1500 rounds into battle, but they had a dedicated mode of transport (even if just a hand cart) that contained IIRC 3000 additional rounds.

Man... 300 rounds is a lot of weight. Angryson (on this Forum) said he started out toting around that much and quickly figured a) he didn't need that much at once and he really didn't like hauling it around A friend of mine, while pulling logistics duty for the Navy in support of OIF, was sent around with only two mags for his M16. Why so little? His officers explained that they wanted to ensure they had a reminder that they aren't infantry. 2 mags should be enough to extract yourself and run away. Good theory for Bahrain, not so good in Iraq.

Steve

[rudel.dietrich]

Armoured forces

Now to everyones favourite battlefield unit.

The tanks!

Syria like Iraq has lots and lots of these, unlike Iraq they are genuine Soviet made tanks that have undergone alot of upgrades and manned by crews who are proficient at what they do.

First I guess I should get it out of the way and shatter the hopes of T-80 fans everywhere.

I found no evidence at all that Syria has acquired any T-80s or that they will do so until a new deal is worked out with Russia to get around Syrias massive debt.

I guess you had better hope something is worked out before the end of the year!

The only evidence I found that Syria has ever even touched a T-80 is a platoon of T-80Us were spotted in country in the early spring of 2004 and were there for purely evaluation purposes.

So to sum it up, I see no reason that BF should waste time modeling the T-80 unless they just want too.

Syria does not yet posses them.

If anyone wants to find info (credible info) that says they do, I would be more than happy to take it under consideration.

I would love to see the T-80 in the game as much as the rest of you.

Now moving on

Lets detail what Syria does indeed have.

First I will list the hardware and numbers and then detail a armoured battalion and company.

The T-54B

Thankfully for Syrian farm boys everywhere, they do not appear to keep this dinosaur in operation anymore.

It appears all or most have been buried and turned into AT bunkers.

The turret are still above ground and below that is a concrete bunker. Thus affording a 100mm AT gun and a machine gun that is hard to see/hit and can take some punishment.

Hundreds of these sit facing the Golan Heights and in rings around Damascus.

Their reserve armoured formations MAY still field mobile versions of these things.

The thought makes me shudder but BF will probably want to model it anways as well at the buriedbunker version.

T-55

Syria still fields many of these. Most are in storage to be used by reserve armoured formations.

This is the T-55A version probably with the 100mm D10 79 gun.

There appears to have been some upgrading done along the way and the result is the...

T-55 AMV

These appear to be used with the reserve formations and some armoured and mechanized divisions.

This version has the same gun as the T-55A but with significamtly upgraded fire control and can fire the AT-10 Basnya missle.

It also has significantly more frontal armour (I think 300mm hull and 350mm turret, I am no good with armour!) and slightly more side armour and is covered in ERA tiles.

Same engine is used so speed suffers a bit.

Somewhere along the line Syria decided maintaining its fleet of T-55s was getting too expensive so they buried many of them in the same way as the T-54.

They still keep over 1300 around in mobile form, but many are in storage and intended for reserve divisions.

I could not find the number of AMV versions but I would think less than 300.

T-62

Now getting into stuff that may survive the first 90 seconds on an engagement.

Syria still fields about 1000 of these relics.

The base version is the T-62M which is pretty outdated with a primative fire control system.

It uses the 115mm 2A20 85 main gun.

This is the best tank given to reserve formations.

Far better is the T-62MV version.

A better fire control system (with laser rangefinder but no thermals) and much better armour make this tank almost worthwhile.

It can also fire the deadly AT-12 Sheksna missle

Main gun is the same as the M version.

The MV version is covered in ERA tiles.

T-72

The best Syria has to offer is the barely adequete T-72.

They mantain about 1700 of these.

They field ALOT of versions.

I am just going to hit on the highlights.

The T-72B seems to be the base model.

A decent fire control system with laser ranging and early generation thermals.

It is well armoured (for a T-72) and has a 125mm D81T 78 main gun.

The T-72G is the same tank with a little better fire control but oddly a little worse armour.

Neither can fire AT missles.

The T-72MIS is the best tank the regular Syrian army fields.

Main gun is a 125mm D81T 83 and can fire AT-11a Svir missles.

Fire control is equivalent to the T-72G and armour to the T-72B

Finally Syria has upgraded a few hundred of its tanks to the T-72AV model.

Gun is a 125mm DB1T 98 model with pretty good fire control. Good laste range finder and decent thermals.

It can also fire the AT-11a Svir.

Armour is same as MIS but is covered in good quality ERA tiles.

And there you have Syrian armour!

P.S.

I found only one source that said Syria has some T-34/85s still mothballed.

I do not think it is true. I hope to god they would have scraped those now and given them to Lebanon or the PLO

Now for the formations.

A Syrian armoured company is 10 tanks.

1x Command tank with no wingman.

Three tanks in each platoon and three platoons

I read that commanders are in the habit of picking the best crewmen to go in their own personal tank.

That is something the armour guys I used to know bitched about alot

The first platoon of each comopany seems to be a 'honour platoon'

The best crew of each company is all put into the first platoon.

Not sure if this means anything in game terms.

No a Syrian armoured battalion the best I can tell is pretty interesting.

A reserve armoured battalion seems to be three comapanies of tanks.

But a first line armoured battalion seems to be FOUR companies.

I found conflicting evidence of this.

Maybe the lack of good officers? Maybe a bigger punch with 40 tanks?

Who knows.

Now armoured battalions seem to have alot attached to them as well.

They get one recon platoon on loan from regiment.

This is 3 BDRMs and attached four man scout teams.

A armoured recon company is 9 BDRMs in 3 platoons, with 9 four man scout teams and 1 command BTR. It also has one sniper team.

The company is at a regimental level.

A armoured battalion also has a SP-ATGM platoon attached.

This is four BDRMs with AT-5 Konkur missle launchers and one command car that is a BTR or BDRM.

A company is 12 SP-ATGMS and four command cars with one acting as company commander.

Finally they have 2 120mm mortars towed by MT-LBs

A mortar company is 8 mortars and a company command vehicle which is a BTR.

The Guards armoured division enjoys the services of the SP 2S4 Tyulpan 240mm mortar system.

Minclearing tanks are on a divisional level it seems as is AA.

Artillery is on a divisional level but is broken down to each regiment.

So there you have your tanks.

As usualy questions and disscussion is welcome!

[ September 03, 2006, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

[rudel.dietrich]

I have ammo loadouts too for alot of tanks if that would be at all useful.

I am trying to find what rounds and AT missles Syria uses for its tanks but that is proving a challenge.

You might just have to pick one and decide to model it.

Unfortunatly rounds and missles make a big difference in armour penetration values.

Not sure how modern Syria has gotten with this stuff

[oren_m]

As far a i know, they use realy standart ammo for tank rounds, just what ever the russian would like to sell them, it would probably be huge amounts of out dated tank shells.

As for the bore fired AT missile i know for sure that they have a T-55 Volna tank which is capble of firing an AT-10 missile.

The AT-10 is a laser riding missile which is fired up to 3000 m'.

The tank itself has a laser device which is both range finding and beam for the missile.

Oren_m

[rudel.dietrich]

Tomorrow night I am going to do artillery.

Formation matters less, but I have gun and quanity info as well as ammo information.

[ September 03, 2006, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

[Battlefront.com]

I'm looking

Steve

[WineCape]

Keep it up Rudel. Interesting stuff. Steve, how long are you able to coax him?

[Molotov Cocktail]

Very good info and interesting Rudel!

Maybe you could send all your info about Syrian Armed Forces via email as excel attachment file to Battlefront.com guys.

Any way keep 'em coming also to this thread! One of the most interesting CM:SF threads.

No we have a also "Syrian" grog!