I read the introduction for Leningrad 1944 and what a pile of shit

[TheHumanMage]

With the siege lifted in January 1944, the Soviets were now on the offensive. The retreating Germans not only had to deal with the crushing numbers the Soviets were throwing at them, but also the unforgiving winter with equipment that wasn't designed for such harsh conditions.

If you dont know that it is going to snow in The soviet Union during winter after 3 years of war then you are a Retard

And the intro makes it sound that all combat only happened during the winter and nothing happened during the spring, summer and fall.

What a pile of ****

[Sixxkiller]

Well arent you tactful? The campaign is designed to be WINTER 44, so I think maybe the description is valid. Maybe you can take your foot out now eh?

[Rastakyle]

Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

With the siege lifted in January 1944, the Soviets were now on the offensive. The retreating Germans not only had to deal with the crushing numbers the Soviets were throwing at them, but also the unforgiving winter with equipment that wasn't designed for such harsh conditions.

If you dont know that it is going to snow in The soviet Union during winter after 3 years of war then you are a Retard

And the intro makes it sound that all combat only happened during the winter and nothing happened during the spring, summer and fall.

What a pile of ****

Being civil isn't a real strong point of yours is it?

[TheHumanMage]

"but also the unforgiving winter with equipment that wasn't designed for such harsh conditions."

If you dont know that it is going to snow in The Soviet Union during winter after 3 years of war then you are a Retard

So every year it came as a suprise;

- OOOO what is that white stuff

- I dont know

- Lets not make any improvments

- Yeah Yeah, sounds good

If you dont know that it is going to snow in The Soviet Union during winter after 3 years of war then you are a Retard

[Sixxkiller]

Considering the Germans never thought they would be retreating in Winter of 1944 I think maybe history pointed this out before my campaign description did.

But if this wasnt true please enlighten me as to my error.

[TheHumanMage]

Your approach to the matter is all wrong

No where does it say that the Germans had 4-5 times more natural resources then the Soviets but the Germans chose to build high cost items and the Soviets chose to build low cost items. And that the Germans had 2-3 times numerous labour force.

So yes the Soviets had more planes but that was because they chose to build em cheap and cheerful and the germans chose to build expensive ones.

The war had gone on for 2.5 years and if you dont understand that after 2.5 years that you need perhaps maybe just maybe just maybe to change your design then you are a retard.

Secondly all Germans except the really naiv ones knew that the war was lost after kursk which happened during the summer what are you going to say there the planes were never designed for summer conditions as well?

So the intro is just nazi propaganda on how the brave germans fought the evil russians to protect germany and western civilization from the evil russians who attacked germany in 1941

And no where does it say that the Germans had 4-5 times more natural resources then the Soviets but the Germans choose to build high cost items and the Soviets choose to build low cost items.

Read Richard Overy, "the dicatators" to see the exact numbers with your own eyes.

[Sixxkiller]

My approach is all wrong? Call me a retard again. I dont care. Have you even played the campaign, or are you just being an asshole because you cant read properly? I said "ENLIGHTEN" me as to my "ERROR". Did I state something that wasnt true? Did winter have nothing to do with Germany retreating? Or can you not answer that?

So call me a retard Nazi propagandist again....

[TheHumanMage]

Yes it had nothing to do with them retreating in 1943-1944

Absolutely **** during 1943-44, nada during 1943-44

They were crushed in kursk during july 1943 this was followed up by many battles such as Operation Polkovodets Rumyantsev, Operation Kutuzov the battle of Dneper all of which happened during the summer

They had lost by 1943 so winter had **** to do with it since they lost during the summer

This myth about winter has been so over played and in 2006 one would expect some people to know better

The people who made CMBB know what happened

The Germans knew that it was going to be cold during winter so it played no part what so ever during 1943-44 since everyone everywhere who was fighting knew what snow was.

But the myth has ofcurse been blown out of proportion since history has been told by the losers for so long who needed to explain their loss.

Or to put it more elegantly

Our view of the war in the east derives from the German experiences of 1941 and 1942, when blitzkrieg exploited the benefits of surprise against a desperate and crudely fashioned Soviet defense. It is the view of a Guderian, a Mellenthin, a Balck, and a Manstein, all heroes of Western military history, but heroes whose operational and tactical successes partially blinded them to strategic realities. By 1943-44, their "glorious" experiences had ceased. As their operational feats dried up after 1942, the Germans had to settle for tactical victories set against a background of strategic disasters. Yet the views of the 1941 conquerors, their early impressions generalized to characterize the nature of the entire war in the east, remain the accepted views. The successors to these men, the Schoeners, the Heinricis, the defenders of 1944 and 1945, those who presided over impending disaster, wrote no memoirs of widespread notoriety, for their experiences were neither memorable nor glorious. Their impressions and those of countless field grade officers who faced the realities of 1944-45 are all but lost.

And the only time it did play a part was during the winter of 41-42 but this american study proves that the germans had lost before the winter started http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Chew/CHEW.asp

Hitler's plans also miscarried before the onset of severe winter weather; he was so confident of a lightning victory that he did not prepare for even the possibility of winter warfare in Russia. Yet his eastern army suffered more than 734,000 casualties (about 23 percent of its average strength of 3,200,000 troops) during the first five months of the invasion, and on 27 November 1941, General Eduard Wagner, the Quartermaster General of the German Army, reported that "We are at the end of our resources in both personnel and materiel. We are about to be confronted with the dangers of deep winter

Talk with the people who made CMBB they know unlike you how much this winter bull**** has been blown out of proportion

And to say that planes were not designed to be able to handle snow after 2.5 years of combat is just wrong.

What kind of idiot dosent learn anything after 2.5 years of war?

The Germans built the Panther tank after they had been tought by the Soviets that sloped armour was better then straight armour.

Lots of text here, I bet to much for you to read

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

The retreating Germans not only had to deal with the crushing numbers the Soviets were throwing at them, but also the unforgiving winter with equipment that wasn't designed for such harsh conditions.

Let us break it down:

1) The Germans were retreating.

2) The Soviets were numerous.

3) The winter was unforgiving.

4) The German equipment wasn't designed for such harsh conditions.

What do you disagree with?

It seems like you think he wrote that the Germans weren't expecting snow in Russia. They most certainly were expecting snow every year of the war, and yet their equipment wasn't designed for such harsh conditions. For example, most German artillery was horse drawn (despite your incoherent ravings about the Germans choosing to build high cost items). On a related note, the German u-boat campaign was the opposite of your "high cost items" contention. I respectfully find you ignorant.

Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

The war had gone on for 2.5 years and if you dont understand that after 2.5 years that you need perhaps maybe just maybe just maybe to change your design then you are a retard.

Who is the retard? The German High Command? The plan was to capture Moscow before the Winter of '41. Most equipment used wasn't specifically designed for a campaign against Russia nor for winter conditions. Are you ranting against decisions made by the German army 60+ years ago?

Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

So the intro is just nazi propaganda on how the brave germans fought the evil russians to protect germany and western civilization from the evil russians who attacked germany in 1941.

Wow. :eek: Where did you get this? From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law), "Godwin argues in his book, Cyber Rights: Defending Free Speech in the Digital Age, that hyperbolic overuse of the Hitler/Nazi comparison should be avoided, as it robs the valid comparisons of their impact."

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

Lots of text here, I bet to much for you to read

Helpful tip for taunting: When you mock the intelligence of Sixx in your post, demonstrate a modicum of intelligence yourself by knowing the difference between to and too.

[TheHumanMage]

Ok back to basic

1 the Germans had more Resources

First number is German second number is Soviet numbers are from Richard Overy's The Dictators

Coal (million tonnes)

1941 315.5 - 151.4

1942 317.9 - 75.5

1943 340.4 - 93.1

1944 347.6 - 121.5

Steel (million tonnes)

1941 28.2 - 17.9

1942 28.7 - 8.1

1943 30.6 - 8.5

1944 25.8 - 10.9

Aluminium (thousand tonnes)

1941 233.6 - –

1942 264.0 - 51.7

1943 250.0 - 62.3

1944 245.3 - 82.7

Labour

1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000

1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000

1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000

1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000

2 The Soviets were not numerous this is a myth the Axis had more Soldiers then the Soviets untill 1943 ok the campaign is in 1943 but I am just pointing this out

3 The axis had throughout the whole war a higher number of labour 2 times more throughout the whole war

And to asume that after 2.5 years no upgrades what so ever were made to any equipment is just wrong

And on a side note the Luftwaffe was bigger then the Red air force during 1941 and during 1942 and during 1943 am not certain when the numbers changed hand and am not certain if the Luftwaffe had more planes in the air during Leningrad 1943-44

But I know that it did during Leningrad 42-43

But As I said before and have proven with numbers the Germans chose to build high cost items the Soviets did not just look at the numbers they speak their own language

The only time that winter played a role was during 1941 but as I have linked above it has been proven that Hitler lost before the winter.

And I did see that you didnt respond to the american study perhaps you are trying to block it out of your mind and pretend it does not exsist

As I have said history has been written by the losers who try to blame everything for their loss but fact is fact the winter affected both sides exactly the same since they were both in the same place during the same time.

And if you do not learn anything after 2.5 years of war the yes you are a retard

Talk with the people who made CMBB they know

[ September 23, 2006, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

[lakespeed]

So.....does this mean you don't like this campaign?

[lakespeed]

As I have said

Umm....after this little retarded tirade I don't think anyone really cares about what you have to say......

BTW, this is just a game that's not really historically accurate, because if you would read before speaking you'd notice that some of the campaigns in the game are "based on speculation and what-if's".

And quite a few people here have donated their time FOR FREE so that people like you can have a game to play....so chill out dude. No one said you had to play the game and if it makes you this upset maybe you should find a new hobby?

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

The Soviets were not numerous this is a myth the Axis had more Soldiers then the Soviets untill 1943

You feel the introduction to Lenigrad 1944 was "a pile of ****" because it states the Soviet forces were numerous. You think this is a "myth." Any numbers to back *that* up for the time frame of the Leningrad 1944 scenario?

On a different note, it seems you are calling the German High Command retarded for continuing to use a great deal of equipment not designed for winter. That's your opinion. It has nothing to do with the scenario description though. The scenario description is accurate.

So I see nothing wrong with the scenario description and it sounds like your only complaint with the description is you feel the Soviets did not possess "numerous forces."

1) The Germans were retreating. - You agree

2) The Soviets were numerous. - You disagree

3) The winter was unforgiving. - You agree

4) The German equipment wasn't designed for such harsh conditions. - You agree, but feel the Germans were "retarded."

[Sixxkiller]

He's a troll. Even an amatuer historian such as myself can read and figure out the fact that a combination of things doomed the Germans in WWII or we would have just done Leningrad 41-42 as there would have been no need for 43 or 44 as the Germans would have been victorious.

Best to just keep this civil.

[TheHumanMage]

I think you all are drawing the wrong conclusions

So I will say it as simple as possible

1 Talk with the people who made CMBB they can tell if when the Soviet Airforce became bigger then the Luftwaffe, this happened in late 43 early 44 when the camapign is going BUT it is not certain if the Red Air Force had more planes then the Luftwaffe over Leningrad and more specificly more fighters. Lots attention was made towards the tank destroyer IL-2 later IL-10.

2 German aircraft in 1943-44 were indeed designed for any weather talk with the people who made CMBB

And no the Soviets were not I say again Were not numerous. I can give many numbers that indicate that things were in the german favour untill 1943-44 as I have proven the Germans had many times more resources and Labour.

I can excpect a historic inaccuracy from any game maker except Battlefront since Battlefront is the mark that all other makers should reach for.

And No I am not a troll

Just pick up the phone and call the people who made research for CMBB if you are indeed working for battlefront this should be no problem so call them today!

And say hello when did the red airforce become bigger then the luftwaffe

And when did the Red Airforce have more fighters

And how many fighters were over Leningrad 1943-44 of both sides, dont forget to factor in Hungarian, Romanian and Italian planes as well.

Since Battlefront is the mark you should know better!

And I am sorry if I sound a bit harsh but as I said Battlefront is the mark, so no mistakes should be allowed.

Tal with teh people who made the research for CMBB they know, they have the numbers.

[Sixxkiller]

So you talk to Steve, Charles, Moon, and Matt do ya? Well then maybe since you are aquainted with them you should learn to respect the forum rules and guidelines......especially when you are dealing with someone who is in charge of such stuff.

[TheHumanMage]

NO I dont talk with anyone where did you get that from? I am telling you to talk with them

This is Battlefront not "pokemon I choose you inc" a levle of historical accuracy is required

And I can tell you that the VVS during 42-43 was smaller then the Luftwaffe and during 43-44 over Leningrad most likely was also smaller

[Zanadu]

Actually, the Germans did not have superior resources and manpower. If they had, they would probably have won the war. The root cause of the failure of the 1941 German offensive to decide the war was that the Germans simply underestimated the number of troops needed to deal with the huge area they were invading, and the logistical difficuties of supplying what they did have.

Europe is actually a pretty small area, geographically, and Euopeans often fail to grasp the problems that result from the distances encountered in a larger area, like the old USSR, or North America.

For the war over all, German troop losses were a small fraction of the Soviet losses. The Soviets won largely by the application of overwhelming manpower that the Germans couldn't match.

They applied the same concept in the air as on the ground. Their a/c were designed for production in massive numbers -- and were. The Germans had a larger industrial base, but they were also fighting the British and, above all, the industrial power of the US. In the early '40s, US industrial capacity was far, far greater that that of German, captured territories included.

[Guest Mike]

Oh dear - well I designed the Leningrad campaigns, although I did not write the intro's for them, but it seems someone is upset over something?

the germans had more resources??

Certainly Germany produced more coal than the USSR - but the USSR produced 3 times as much oil - 110 million tons compared to 33 million - of which 24 million was synthetic! Romania and Hungary produced another 28 million - so total Axis production was half that of the USSR.

The USA produced 833 million tons - more than twice the USSR + the UK + the Axis combined!

Germany HAD to ahve coal as a basic fuel - no-one else did - coal is irrelevant except as a poor replacement for oil.

Iron Ore - Germany 240 million tons, Italy, Hungary and Romania another 30 million.

soviet Union 110 million. USA 396 million, UK 119 million

Data from Wiki article on materials production

Manpower - I dont' have any manpower stats, but if the numbers for labourers you give is correct the the Soviets were magicians - with less manpower, and less steel but more oil they outproduced the Third Reich in:

Warplanes: 157,000 Sov to 100,000 German

Tanks: 102,000 to 47000

Soldiers: More Soviet soldiers every eyar from 1943 onwards

And the Germans had to spread those resources over occupying Europe, fightign in Nth Africa (and eventually Italy and Western Europe), AND tohe Soviet Union.

One wonders how they managed to do so well in the first place??!! lol

as for German equipment not being made for the cold - well it simply wasn't!

The Winter if 1941-42 was much colder than others had been - it was ananomolly. It also affected the Soviets quite badly, tho not nearly to the same extent.

It wasn't just aircraft - German small arms had all been designed prior to the war, as had most of their tanks and "soft" vehicles. Their a/c had also been designed pre-war, although later marks now in service had been heavily modified - but I see few modifications for winter - plwenty for more power and speed tho.

Possibly the comment about the problems with weather is overplayed - but hey - it's jsut a wargame!!

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Zanadu:

For the war over all, German troop losses were a small fraction of the Soviet losses. The Soviets won largely by the application of overwhelming manpower that the Germans couldn't match.

sometimes....but for example when the German offensive vs Moscow petered out in 1941 the Germans had, IIRC 1.7 million men in the area of the central front, vs about 1.2 million for the Soviets, so manpower wasn't the only problem!

[TheHumanMage]

Zandu is 100% wrong in everything he said

I have posted reource numbers abov Zandu just scroll

The axis had more slodiers avalible to them from August 1941 to aug 1943

The axis had more natural resources and more labour then the Soviets throught the whole war look at the numbers that I posted just scroll up and look

Lend lease didnt kick in for real untill end of 1943 and still USSR + lend lease was still less then Axis natural resource production BUT the Soviets chose to build low cost items and the axis chose to build high cost items

Total Axis losses on the eastern front 5.5 million

Total Soviet Losses 8.6 million

Everything Zandu said is wrong

No body here seems to know any numbers

I have posted all the numbers

Yes the Axis had a great supply of labour I even gave the source just look!

This is the problem when history is told by losers they can make anything up

Fact is fact the Axis had a greater supply of labour the the Soviets but the Soviets were able to build more because they chose to build low cost equipment and the axis chose to build high cost equipment

And So what that the US had a great supply of everything how much of it reached The eastern front-- Just a small fraction

Fact is fact the Axis had 5 times more natural resources then the Soviets

The Axis outnumbered the Soviets Untill 1943 Fact is fact numbers are numbers

[ September 26, 2006, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

[Zanadu]

To Mage.

US (and Bristish) industrial capacity was a major factor on the Soviet front, although only about 10% of Soviet a/c came from the west. German air losses in the west --primarily the result of the USAAF bomber offensive -- surpassed those on the Eastern front in the first half of 1943. As far as the Soviets were concerned, a Gruppen withdrawn to defend Germany against the B17s and P47s was the same as a Gruppen destroyed. It was no longer something they had to deal with.

[TheHumanMage]

READ what I have typed

You are wrong when you say that the Soviets ran over the axis like ants with supperior numbers this is 100% wrong and even battlefront proves you wrong

http://www.battlefront.com/products/books/nafziger/sovietarmorintro.html

The Axis hade more resources then the Soviets throught the whole war confirm that you have scrolled up and looked at the numbers and understand this

The axis had more soldiers more tanks more planes more small arms more bullets more artillery avalible to them during aug 1941 to aug 1943 this you ignore confirm that you understand this

You skip over 1941 you skip over 1942 who out numberd who from august 1941- aug 1943?

[ September 26, 2006, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

[Sixxkiller]

I think you need to read that again..

Second, the general level of training in the Soviet Army, and the armoured force, increased dramatically. Not only were commanders more experienced and better able to pass on that experience to their subordinates, but the Soviet military, unlike the German Wehrmacht, had the manpower reserves to send a large percentage of their troops and officers to schools for technical training. By the beginning of 1943, almost 1,000,000 men (and women) were in military schools, academies, and "military courses" in the USSR. When these graduates went to the front 3-, 6-, or 9 months later, they were far better able to handle the basic staff and command tasks than the unfortunates standing in the way of Operation Barbarossa in 1941.