TheHumanMage

Sirocco I would like to bring you up to be speed about Inigo Montoya 1 Inigo Montoya belives that the Soviet Union had a limitless supply of men and material 2 Inigo Montoya does not post any sources and has no logic 3 Inigo Montoya can not argue with sources so Inigo Montoya does not argue at all but tries to bad mouth me at every corner 4 Inigo Montoya has never been right about anything in Inigo Montoya life 5 Inigo Montoya is a failure 6 Inigo Montoya likes puting words into other peoples mouths 7 Inigo Montoya has been proven wrong at every corner 8 Inigo Montoya does not understand that you can not compare items of significant different cost 9 Inigo Montoya does not understand that If a plane costs 10 times as more to build then it should inflict 10 times as many casulties otherwise it is a waste of resources 10 Everything Inigo Montoya says is wrong

Inigo Montoya no one wants to join a coward. Inigo Montoya lets not forget for one second that I have proven you wrong in everything you have said and unlike you I actually back up everything I say with logic and sources You say the soviets had a limitless supply of men and material I have proven this wrong You say the Soviets were numerous I have proven this wrong The axis had more men untill 1943 why didnt the axis win when they had more men? And later why didnt they win when they had less men? Inigo Montoya lets not forget that everything you have ever done or everything you do or everything you ever will do in your life is wrong

My points are many 1 the axis had more resources 2 The Soviets didnt win because they had limtless supply of men and materials 3 The axis had more men deployed untill 1943 4 This myth about overwhelming numbers of tanks, guns, and rockets followed by waves of ill-trained but limitless "cannon fodder" which served mainly, it would appear, to use up all the German ammunition. Is wrong

No we did not. The Germans were not taken completly by suprise by winter 43-44. The winter of 43-44 was at the front almost exactly the same as a winter in Germany.

Dont worry, be happy

You are takeing for the Whole war look at the YEARS during 1942 and 43 the Germans and the Axis had 5 times more dont take the whole war The Soviets always keept 1.5 million men in the far east incase Japan wanted to attack But yes the Germans did spend on more fronts but During 1941-1942-1943 the vast majority went against the Soviets

No the part of Winter playing a major part for the Germans during 43-44 is still BS since Weather is neutral it affects all sides the same The side that dosent prepare for it gets punished, and by winter 43-44 both sides were prepared for it

Stalin's Organist the conversation has since long ago mutated far away from down in flames sorry if you have gotten pissed off Money between 2 countries can never be compared only hours spent. Compare prices between 2 countries today for the exact same product and you will see major differences. Sixxkiller Sixxkiller ofcurse it can still kill that is the whole point which you are missing There comes a time and a place when it is better just to build a new item then continue to improve the same item That is what the Soviets understod and the Germans Faild to understand What you sixxkiller have done is take high cost german aircraft and then compared kill ratios with low cost soviet air craft and come to the conclusion that german pilots were btter. It would be the same if I took M82A1 and compared them with M24 and then said well the M82A1 inflicted more hits so the user of the M82A1 must be better then the user of the M24 just because the user of the M82A1 inflicted more hits. Ignoreing the fact that the M82A1 cost many times more! The question you need to ask yourself is: Is 1 M82A1 better then 20 M24? Finally you sixxkiller understand that you cant compare high cost items with low cost items!

Sirocco this conversation has expand by far over the game and Leningrad winter of 43-44 I understand what you are saying and agree with you But the last 30+ post or so have not been about the game or winter 43-44 over Leningrad

Read the text next to industrial output Germany's raw material production was higher than the Soviets' and her labour force was far greater, but the Soviets were more efficient at using what resources they had and chose to build low-cost, low-maintenance vehicles whilst the Germans built high-cost, high-maintenance vehicles. It was because the germans had 5 times more resources that they were able to build more expensive items and get a beter hit ratio then the Soviets BUT the kill ratio did not match the production cost ratio My point beeing is that the Soviets were not numerous they just chose to build cheap items and that is why they were able to build more items What people do is compare Expensive German Items With Cheap Soviet Items and then say hey look the Germans inflicted a greater % of kills so they must be better, ignoreing the fact that German items cost many times more to build.

Yes in 1944 the Soviets did have more avalible men but not by far do not forget that untill mid 1943 the Axis outnumbered the Soviets so in Jan 44 the Soviets did NOT outnumber the axis by far

No a PZ 4 is many times more expensive in materials you need to look at all items The engine the gun the track the shells the wheels etc Then you also need to look at hours spent Same things goes for air craft and that is what it has to do with down in flames You need to compare how many hours an air craft took to build and how many kilograms of different materials went into it And you need to calculate total man hours includeing how much it took to build every piece such as the engine the guns and so on Only then can you compare costs

Inigo Montoya and Zanadu both say they had limitless men and material Zanadu says and belives that for every 1 German dead 10 Soviets died. The euro axis lost 5.5 soldiers on the eastern front this would mean according to Zanadu that 55 million Soviet Soldiers died This concept of them beeing numerous is so cemented into peoples mind that people belive it to be true Soviet tanks went on Disel, the Germans got alot of oil from romania and captured parts of the Soviet Union I bet you that the Soviets would have been many times more happy if they would have had 5 times more Iron Aluminium and Coal then the Germans. No the Germans did have 5 times more in resources except oil Since you like wiki so much check out this The "eastern front" article about ww2 and scroll down to industrial production Scroll down to industrial Production

You cant compare in money! money meant nothing back then You need to compare in materials spent in kilograms and man hours spent to build and item This is how you compare cost You look how many kilograms, Steal, Coal, Iron, etc went into an item Then you look how many hours were spent on building that item Only then do you have a real comparison, comparing in money means nothing Comparing in money means absolutely **** Why dont you compare how much a car costs to buy in France and then compare that very same car to how much it costs to buy in china comparing in money means nothing! [ September 28, 2006, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

Soviet Dead 8,6 million Military 20 million Civilians Grand Total 28 million The Aircraft ratio is intresting during aug 41 for every month untill aug 43 because in the vast majority of those months the VVS was smaller then the Luftwaffe When the user who said the Soviets were numerous said the soviet were numerous that user meant that the Soviets had many times more men resources and materials then the axis which is completely wrong The axis had more resources but built high cost items the Soviets built low cost items that is why the Soviets were able to build more items and win the war. The Soviets did not have a limitless supply of men nor did the Soviets suffer a death ratio of ten to one for every german dead The Soviets had less Soldiers deployed untill 1943 The Soviets had less resources The Soviets had less labour.

My point that you miss is that the Axis chose to build high cost expensive items The Soviets built cheap and chearfull low cost items The axis built very expensive items the soviets built very cheap items If the Germans would have built the exact same items as the Soviets then the Germans would have had 5 times as many items as the Soviets That is why the Germans were able to inflict more casulties because they built many times more expensive items BUT the cost in producing the expensive items did not match the kill ratio the items provided! So the axis wasted their resources [ September 28, 2006, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

They built more things with less resources and less labour They chose to build low cost items the germans built high cost items that is why the germans were able to score a great amount of hits but this greater amount of hits was still less then it cost to build the items Numerous beeing that they built more thing because they had more resources which is wrong Numerous beeing that they had limtless resources in men and material which is wrong Numerous beeing huge masses of tanks blundering about the battlefield in columns of bunches or herd-like formations until they either roll over the opposition by sheer weight of metal or are shot up by smaller, expertly manoeuvring westerners. Which is complete BS The Germans had 5 times as many resources and twice the labour and chose to build high cost items, the germans wasted resources the Soviets did not If an item costs 10 times as more to build then it should inflict 10 times as many casulties otherwise it is a waste of resources And dont forget that the Axis had more soldiers deployed then the Soviets untill 1943

Numerous beeing that they built more thing because they had more resources which is wrong Numerous beeing that they had limtless resources in men and material which is wrong Numerous beeing huge masses of tanks blundering about the battlefield in columns of bunches or herd-like formations until they either roll over the opposition by sheer weight of metal or are shot up by smaller, expertly manoeuvring westerners. Which is complete BS The Germans had 5 times as many resources and twice the labour and chose to build high cost items, the germans wasted resources the Soviets did not And dont forget that the Axis had more soldiers deployed then the Soviets untill 1943

Mishago you are right this is just a game but Battlefront WAS a good company and KNEW (past tense) about ww2 now with this current part they have become mainstream Mishago you are right maybe I should just forget about everything And let the idots think what ever they want Because any can always look up the numbers in Encyclopedias and see that I am right [ September 28, 2006, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

The lesson : dont step off!

Zanadu The only propaganda is the German one which you trumpet so loudly Zanadu Any fact book published in any year after 2000 will show you production numbers just pick up any encyclopedia of any country and see for your self. Zanadu Ten to one is pure nazi propaganda this was only during Barbarossa Zanadu Look the Axis lost 5.5 million soldiers in the East if it were ten to one this would mean the Soviets lost 55 million Soldiers Total Soviet War losses were 8.6 million DEAD look it up. And out of those 3,6 million died in camps 5 million in combat. As I have Said total Axis Dead 5.5 million (500k During the first 6 months) Total Soviet Dead 8.6 million ( 3 million Dead and 3 million Captured during the first 6 months 56% of all Soviet POW died in camps = 4.5 million Dead during the first 6 months.) Your knowledge of Soviet doctrine = ZERO you only know what Germans sources say and they talk ONLY about Barbarossa. Ten to one where the hell is your logic? If total Axis DEAD are military 5.5 million in the east and total military Soviet are 8.6 million where the hell do you get the fantasy 10 to one number? Zanadu You need to Read David Glantz he is an American Officer who has written many books about the Svoiet War effort during ww2, read his books When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler. He has written many books and all are good. [ September 28, 2006, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

The only one who ignores data and logic is you Inigo Montoya You ignore the fact that the Germans had 5 times more natural resources you ignore the fact that the Soviet army was smaller then the Axis untill 1943 you ignore pure logic The only one who has a programmed mind is you Inigo Montoya with your neo nazist way of thinking that for every German 1 million Soviets died. The Germans had 5 times more natural resources you ignore this The Germans had 2 times the labour you ignore this The Soviets had by the end of 41 40% of its population in German hands you ignore this It is you Inigo Montoya who ignore everything Why dont you go to any university in any country and try to pass this BS theory of the Soviets beeing numerous and see how far you get, I dare you [ September 28, 2006, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

Inigo Montoya you are so full of it You still think the Soviets were nomours even though the axis had 2 times the labour force and 5 times the natural resources? Who do you think was doing all the digging and all the makeing? Alot of those people could have been sent to the army

Show numbers for both sides for each month during the conflict only then will you see with your own eyes that the Luftwaffe outnumbered the VVS for the majority of the time untill mid-late 1943 Rune stop jumping from periods In 41 there were problems these were fixed the problems were not ignored And do not forget that over Moscow on the 1 of october 1941 the Luftwaffe had 950 planes and the VVS had 677 planes The Soviet Airforce lost 2000 planes in the first hours of the German attack, destoyed on the ground, then the rest of the airforce was destroyed within weeks also mostly destroyed on the ground This meant that what ever problems the Luftwaffe had it was several times less then the VVS And do not forget that over Moscow on the 1 of october 1941 the Luftwaffe had 950 planes and the VVS had 677 planes Show numbers for both sides for each month during the conflict only then will you see with your own eyes that the Luftwaffe outnumbered the VVS for the majority of the time untill mid-late 1943

Rune! I read everything people write look you wrote In this period, the Soviet Military Air Force, or VVS, lost 6976 aircraft and the Germans 1170 Then the month after that the Germans would have more then the Soviets right? And This means that the Germans would outnumber the Soviets for some time.