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I read the introduction for Leningrad 1944 and what a pile of shit


TheHumanMage

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You pick and choose the parts you want you skip over 1941 you skip over 1942 you skip over vast amounts of information you who have the abillity to call the people who made CMBB but actively choose not to

So I will say it again

The Axis had more natural resources up to 5 times more then the Soviets except oil

The axis had a great number of labour

The axis out numbered the Soviets untill aug 1943 when it comes to men

When It comes to AVALIBLE aircraft the change happened during 1944 so the text you use for leningrad campaign during winter 1942 -43 is 100% wrong the Luftwaffe outnumbered the Soviets by between 3-5 to 1

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Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

When It comes to AVALIBLE aircraft the change happened during 1944 so the text you use for leningrad campaign during winter 1942 -43 is 100% wrong the Luftwaffe outnumbered the Soviets by between 3-5 to 1

Are you now saying that you have no problem with the introductory text for the 1944 Leningrad campaign and instead are now directing your complaint to the 1942 and 1943 Leningrad campaigns?
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No, again you miss everything I have said

Read exactly what I have said I will now ctrl c ctrl v what I have said before since you have forgoten it

And on a side note the Luftwaffe was bigger then the Red air force during 1941 and during 1942 and during 1943 am not certain when the numbers changed hand and am not certain if the Luftwaffe had more planes in the air during Leningrad 1943-44

But in no case was the VVS numerically vast supperior to the Luftwaffe over Leningrad 43-44

And to asume that after 2.5 years no upgrades what so ever were made to any equipment is just wrong

First number is German second number is Soviet numbers are from Richard Overy's The Dictators

Coal (million tonnes)

1941 315.5 - 151.4

1942 317.9 - 75.5

1943 340.4 - 93.1

1944 347.6 - 121.5

Steel (million tonnes)

1941 28.2 - 17.9

1942 28.7 - 8.1

1943 30.6 - 8.5

1944 25.8 - 10.9

Aluminium (thousand tonnes)

1941 233.6 - –

1942 264.0 - 51.7

1943 250.0 - 62.3

1944 245.3 - 82.7

Labour

1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000

1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000

1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000

1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000

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Note that I started this thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=000668

in order to avoid the silliness of your repeated use of coal, labor, etc. Those numbers prove nothing, although you repeatedly trumpet them. You beg repeatedly for Sixx to confirm he has read them. I would like to tell you that I myself had read them everytime you posted them. You don't need to post them again. They aren't magic and won't win an argument for you. You have to *use* the numbers to make a point.

The point we had reached in this thread was this:

1) The Germans were retreating. - You agree

2) The Soviets were numerous. - You disagree because you feel numerous would mean the Soviets had more planes than the Germans.

3) The winter was unforgiving. - You agree

4) The German equipment wasn't designed for such harsh conditions. - You initially agreed, but felt the Germans were "retarded." Now you think all German equipment was designed for harsh conditions and there was "ZERO" impact from winter. In your reality, [sarcasm] German planes did not ice up on their electrically heated runways. They flew in blizzards despite white-out conditions. Santa Claus delivered supplies without any problems from muddy roads, snow drifts, or ice. [/sarcasm]

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I get what he is saying now. He is saying that we must prove all our facts with numbers. We do that but we are still wrong. So no matter what, since he obviously cant read english above 4th grade level, we will never get this guy to believe anything we say. Well he did say Zanadu was 100% right but was also wrong....

But one last time I will tell him this....

NOTHING WILL CHANGE FOR THE CAMPAIGN DESCRIPTION UNLESS........

1. I am ordered to by higher powers such as Brian, Dan, Matt, Moon, Steve, or Charles.

2. Stalin, Mr Montoya, or anyone else on my test team who are much smarter than I am on Russian aircraft and WWII tells me that I am wrong.

3. My dog tells me she doesnt like steak, chicken, and pork chops.

4. Elvis returns with Zhukov to sing me Weezers greatest hits in B flat.

5. Iran converts to the jewish faith and declares war on Zimbabwe (I used Zimbabwe because its the coolest sounding country name)

6. I stop being the sexiest Sixxkiller of them all.

So any further discussion is pointless because you have had a chance to prove me wrong and yet you havent. So in short, not only have you lost the battle, but you also lost the war.

See ya sunshine

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Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

And on a side note the Luftwaffe was bigger then the Red air force during 1941 and during 1942 and during 1943 am not certain when the numbers changed hand and am not certain if the Luftwaffe had more planes in the air during Leningrad 1943-44

But in no case was the VVS numerically vast supperior to the Luftwaffe over Leningrad 43-44

If you are not certain when "the numbers changed", and you are not certain "if hte Luftwaffe had more planes in the air during Lenningra 1943-44" then how can you possibly state hte last sentence?

Sheesh!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

And to asume that after 2.5 years no upgrades what so ever were made to any equipment is just wrong

Who said there are no upgrades for the equipment? The Axis and Soviets both get upfraded equipment in the 1943 and 1944 campaigns. Unfortunately there are not models for it all, so some has been "simulated" by use of other types - particularly the P-39 is "simulated" by use of a Yak-9 before the Yak-9 was in service.
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Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

When It comes to AVALIBLE aircraft the change happened during 1944 so the text you use for leningrad campaign during winter 1942 -43 is 100% wrong the Luftwaffe outnumbered the Soviets by between 3-5 to 1

Prove it.

Where are the facts and figures to back up this statement?

The LW was actually outnumbered in December 1941 - 1376 for the VVS in the Western Sector alone (in front of Moscow) - the Soviets estimated the LW had only 580 a/c in that sector (Red Phoenix pg 75).

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Inigo Montoya

You combine all winters into one winter, If you continue to think the exact things happened during every winter then you are the retard

I will say it again for the millionth time

Winter 1941-42 the Axis were not prepard do you understand this can your brain process this

One year later they were prepard 2 years later they were prepard 3 years later they were prepard do you understand this or cant your brain process that after 2.5 years of war upgrades were made.

Sixxkiller i said Zandu was 100% wrong you cant even read.

Sixxkiller talk to rune he can explain that the LLuftwaffe during aug 1941 to aug 1943 vastly outnumbered the VVS in avalible deployed aircraft.

Stalin: number of planes during battle of moscow as of october 1 Luftwaffe 950 VVS 667 Luftwaffe outnumbers the Soviets by 50% "Moscow Encyclopedia, ed. Great Russian Encyclopedia, Moscow, 1997, entry "Battle of Moscow""

You dont, like every else, seem to understand that the Red Airforce was alsmot completly wiped out during 1941 and that the Luftwaffe was not!

[ September 27, 2006, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

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What is geting old is that you cant understand that the Soviets who had less natural resources were able to produce more items because they (the Soviets) chose to build low cost items

The axis had more resources 5 times as much

The axis had more labour 2 times as much

The axis had more soldeirs untill 1943 then the soviets deployed at any given time

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Ok let me put it this way one last time.

Lets say there are a total of 100 votes to change the description.

I as the "Lead Campaign Designer" have 50 votes. Stalin has 50 votes. Bride aka Mr Montoya has 50 votes. Thats 150 votes out of 100. Now if Stalin and Bride say, "Ray, change it you old sexy guy with a beautiful puppy (http://sixxkiller.bravehost.com/web-content/Dog/dogindex.html) then it gets changed.

Now you have say -150 votes. You actually started with 0 but calling people who have way more knowledge than you do has lost you 150 votes.

So if you can come up with +301 votes, you will actually get a say. Until then you starting new threads after you have been proven wrong is a bit pathetic.

Any questions Sunshine?

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How have I been proven wrong it is you who have been proven wrong

Who had more resources?

Who had a greater number of labour?

And how Have I been proven wrong and where

No where

Again the Axis had 5 times as much natural resources you do not coment on this because you cant and then you say I have been proven wrong when fact is fact that the axis had more reousrces

So please infome me who I am wrong when I say that the Axis had 5 times as much natural resources

The only thing here that is pathetic is your understanding of ww2 and your draging the good battlefront name through the mud

I post natural resources and what do you do call me pathetic and proven wrong

I post pure logic

If you build something that is 10 times as expensive then it must also be 10 times as good otherwise it is a waste of resources

And what do you do call me proven wrong and call me pathetic

The only one here proven wrong is you

The only one pathetic here is you who refuses to form any coherent answer and just calls people patheitc now that, if anything, is pathetic

Got that Sixxkiller?

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Hey, I just want to shoot down some virtual planes...this is a game, only a game, just a game, for fun and leisure time; not a doctoral dissertation. Does it matter who had more planes in real life? When I play DIF, I mostly just see 4 planes, and I'm trying very hard to turn that into just 2 planes (mine). So my world of DIF is mostly, but not exclusively, about the next four planes, not hundreds, not thousands, just the small number of planes in front of me on the game screen. And I normally have a fun time coaxing my leaders up the experience ladder. Ok, I'm just a newbie, but I hope that I can coax them up the ladder.

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Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

What is geting old is that you cant understand that the Soviets who had less natural resources were able to produce more items because they (the Soviets) chose to build low cost items

The axis had more resources 5 times as much

The axis had more labour 2 times as much

The axis had more soldeirs untill 1943 then the soviets deployed at any given time

Yawn....assuming you are correct - and I do not accept that because you have given only 1 source which I cannot check and which conflicts with the others I have on most of its points.....

so what?

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Hi TheHumanMage - please consider that how you present yourself is as important as what you have to say. There really is no need to be on the attack all the time. Backing off and starting fresh may be the better approach to take if you honestly feel you have a significant issue to discuss. (And i would guess you do think so) I'm trying to tell you that you are not serving your side of the argument well by being confrontational. And while others have been equally confrontational, you have to own up to the fact that you started all of this with an exquisitly nasty first post.

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Mishago you are right this is just a game but Battlefront WAS a good company and KNEW (past tense) about ww2 now with this current part they have become mainstream

Mishago you are right maybe I should just forget about everything

And let the idots think what ever they want

Because any can always look up the numbers in Encyclopedias and see that I am right

[ September 28, 2006, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

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Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

Only one source pick up any ww2 book with stats and figures and check out natural resource production

Richard Overy's The dictators is avalible in most cities, but if you cant get that take any ww2 fact book that can have production numbers

You haven't answered the question - so what?

You admit in another thread that the Soviets "built more things" - so why is it BS that they are more numerous?

You are contradicting yourself!!

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They built more things with less resources and less labour

They chose to build low cost items the germans built high cost items that is why the germans were able to score a great amount of hits but this greater amount of hits was still less then it cost to build the items

Numerous beeing that they built more thing because they had more resources which is wrong

Numerous beeing that they had limtless resources in men and material which is wrong

Numerous beeing huge masses of tanks blundering about the battlefield in columns of bunches or herd-like formations until they either roll over the opposition by sheer weight of metal or are shot up by smaller, expertly manoeuvring westerners. Which is complete BS

The Germans had 5 times as many resources and twice the labour and chose to build high cost items, the germans wasted resources the Soviets did not

If an item costs 10 times as more to build then it should inflict 10 times as many casulties otherwise it is a waste of resources

And dont forget that the Axis had more soldiers deployed then the Soviets untill 1943

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With the siege lifted in January 1944, the Soviets were now on the offensive. The retreating Germans not only had to deal with the crushing numbers the Soviets were throwing at them, but also the unforgiving winter with equipment that wasn't designed for such harsh conditions.
The Soviets were on the offensive from 1943, and a benefit of that is the opportunity to decide the critical point, and through deception measures - which the Soviets were very good at - achieve overwhelming superiority in men, artillery, armour and aircraft. You don't need to achieve those numbers along the whole front, in fact you can weaken other areas, as the Soviets did, in order to achieve those numbers where it mattered.

In truth the Soviets *did* have a manpower shortage as both sides bled each other white, but to the Germans, on the receiving end of these offensives, it appeared that the Soviets far outnumbered them numerically.

Originally posted by TheHumanMage:

If you dont know that it is going to snow in The soviet Union during winter after 3 years of war then you are a Retard

Of course the Germans learnt from the lessons of 1941/42, but you can't replace your equipment inventory within such a short space of time. You have to make do and improvise with what you have while bringing new equipment into service.

[ September 28, 2006, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Sirocco ]

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The briefing, which this is supposed to be about, relates to a specific offensive, I presume, not having DiF. And during offensives the Soviets overloaded the numbers in their advantage, not along the whole front but at the critical point they wanted to achieve a breakthrough.

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