Haohmaru Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Hi there. This game looks really cool and I'm looking forward to trying out the demo. Just a couple of questions/observations: How exactly do the maneuvers work? I couldn't see any screenshots there which made it clear how you actually select them, will they be laid out like you have a deck of cards or does it work some other way? Secondly, I was a bit surprised that the graphics are top-down like that, it looks a bit strange all of the planes lined up facing off against each other, I was expecting some kind of 3d representation of the battle. I've noticed that in a lot of the animations they don't actually fit they "box" they are in (such as smoke suddenly being chopped off at the edge) and that really detracts from the presentation, will those graphical defects be cleared up before release? Any plans to ever make it into 3d? Cheers, Haoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Hello Haoh, the maneuvers you will be able to select are listed on the right-hand side of the GUI, and you're simply able to click on the one that you want to select. Eligible maneuvers/cards are highlighted. The top-down view is actually helpful in determining the relative "stance" of your pilots against the enemy, i.e. if you're advantaged, tailing, disadvantaged, neutral etc. The original card-game obviously is top-down, too Who knows, maybe DIF-2 at some point will be full 3D though. MNB, the second game in line will be in fact! Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haohmaru Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 Great, thanks for the reply. Any chance of getting a screenie or two of how it looks selecting a maneuver? Good to hear that MNB is full 3d! That's funny to me actually, I kind of expected it to be the other way round since ship combat is 2d whereas altitude also comes into play for aerial dogfighting. Looking forward to both demos. Haoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Haoh, I believe that you will find some screenshots of how it looks in the screenshot section of the DIF web page Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 That's funny to me actually, I kind of expected it to be the other way round since ship combat is 2d whereas altitude also comes into play for aerial dogfighting.Right, but then think about it - the fact that a game is 3D alone doesn't necessarily mean that it's helpful for the game. In fact, there is a considerable challenge to show the complex three-dimensional environment of aerial combat in a 3D game format. As a number of attemtps to copy CM have shown in the past, 3D all by itself doesn't do a thing - it's the game interface design AROUND the 3D environment that makes a game playable - or unplayable - and the 3D world helpful; or an obstacle. In terms of playability, the current well laid out top-down implementation is definitely a lot better than a half-hearted 3D world would be. So instead of biting off too much to swallow for a first release, I think Dan and Brian made a wise choice to remain 2D. BTW, the planes itself are animated in 3D, and funny enough, for some reason the immersion once you start playing is surprising. There is a strang fascination to watch the planes conduct the various turns, scissors and loops. I wonder if it was the same in full 3D to be honest. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shosties Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I'm glad Haohmaru framed his questions in the way he did and for Moon's reply. I will own up to being somewhat dissapointed by the top-down 2d representation shown in the screenshots, but feeling hesistant to voice them (there being more than enough unreasonable complaints around here that DiF is "not Il-2"). The reasons given for the presentation are clear and on the face of it appear very sound, but I fear for the sense of immersion that is especially important for air combat. It's been said that the testers are having a blast, but frankly that doesn't jump out at *me* from the screenies, so I would forgive anybody for walking away with that impression. I will of course look forward to the demo release to experience rather than have to imagine "the feel" of it. That MNB will be 3d from the get-go is very good news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Shosties4th - the reason that the fun we're having doesn't jump at you from the screenies is quite simple: the fun comes from playing the game, not from looking at graphics DIF is not a flight sim and doesn't try to be. You won't even need a joystick to play it, just a bit of brains, an understanding of the game system, and a few lucky card draws (Yup, there is a game system with rules and stuff. Did I mention that it's not a flight sim? Anybody remember what a strategy game is? I mean, before Strategy became equal to "who clicks the fastest in real time" ) DIF is a fun and simple yet intriguing and highly addictive card game system, not more, not less. You can play a 4 player session online in around 15 minutes, and over time, you see your pilots gain experience, earn new skills and planes, and rise step by step on the laddder. That's fun. 3D wouldn't make this any better but could make it a lot worse and clunky. The immersion while playing DIF doesn't come from looking at things. It comes from trying to outsmart your opponent(s), from gamey bluffs, risky strategies and lucky card draws. This game is gamey! It's fun to be gamey Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shosties Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Originally posted by Moon: This game is gamey! It's fun to be gamey That would make good .sig material, but I will let that slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Was there really a Japanese pilot named Pong Ping? Did he have anything to do with that game where you hit the little ball over the net? I think it's called Tennis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Verssen Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Ted, I was wondering if anyone was going to notice Ping Pong! Some of the pilot names the testers choose are kind of off the wall... Others are simply unprintable in a family setting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shosties Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Japanese Ping Pong? Check it out... in homemade "bullet time". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haohmaru Posted July 7, 2004 Author Share Posted July 7, 2004 Thanks everyone for your input. I also fear that immersion will be lost with this style, one of the points of transfering a card game to the pc would I believe be to increase the feeling of being a part of the battle, the feeling that CM is so good at making you feel. However, Moon's explanation is fair enough and clearly the screenshots don't give the game justice, the demo should give us a much better idea of what it is like. With all the animations and hopefully high quality sound effects I'm hoping you can feel involved in the battle quite well. I think I've found a screenshot or two for selecting maneuvers, now this one is surprising to me as well, you just select the name from a list? This is one thing I was expecting would look like the card game, ie you have a deck of cards and choose the one you want. Bring on the demo! Haoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 Hello Haoh, good points! But keep in mind that "immersion" doesn't have to automatically mean 3D. Immersion is something different for a first person sim than for a strategy game. In a first person sim, you want the feeling to be there in the first person (duh!), but the boardgames of the (forgotten?) past could be immersive without a 3D environment. Believe me, if DIF was fully 3D but played clunky because you couldn't immediately see and click on the the enemy plane at a different altitude, or because you couldn't find your own plane, the immersion would be lost rather quickly But you're right, there isn't much we can do to convince you guys until we get the demo out. Which shouldn't be too far away I presume. As for the cards - this was the idea early on, but was dropped because quite frankly it was cluttering up the whole screen. You can have 10 cards in your hand and more, that gets tough to show nicely. Believe me, you'd curse if you had to select and quickly find a card. That's why we moved cards to an optional feature - when you right-click on a maneuver, you get this: Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haohmaru Posted July 8, 2004 Author Share Posted July 8, 2004 Thanks for the screenie Moon, from what you've shown there I really like how the card info is implemented. Believe me, having now gotten over the initial shock of how the game looks (not because it doesn't look good, but because it looks completely different from what I was expecting), I am gradually becoming whipped into a frenzy of anticipation for this game. Now that I think of it, when I originally had a look at CMBO the screenies didn't particularly interest me, but I gave the demo a punt and was hooked instantly. I'm hoping it will be the same for DIF and eventually MNB. Haoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiG-3 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 "maybe DIF-2 at some point will be full 3D though. MNB, the second game in line will be in fact!" Martin [/QB] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Hello MiG-3, there is no website up yet for MNB, as we're still collecting info to show while moving from design concept to actual alpha. There is a discussion forum though - MODERN NAVAL BATTLES WW2 FORUM Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter tilbury Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Just to back up the general drift; I found the top-down FC2 more immersive than the 3D BoB game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Originally posted by peter tilbury: Just to back up the general drift; I found the top-down FC2 more immersive than the 3D BoB game. Speaking of FC2, I'd love to see this game updated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiG-3 Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I have BoB by Talonsoft and I'm dissapointed. It reminded me of the Avalon Hill Luftwaffe game, which needed something else in the game structure to make it a good game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Boggs Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Bumped as a more interesting piece to have on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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