--- POLL --- Armies vs corps

[JerseyJohn]

A passage from Hitler's Renegades: Foreign Nationals in the Service of the Third Reich

by Christopher Ailsby © 2004 The Brown Reference Group

Pg 171

At the end of World War II, there were millions of men and women of non-German origin who had served Nazi Germany between 1939 and 1945 ...

The German Army, the agent for spreading Nazi ideology throught Europe, made use of great numbers of foreign volunteer units. These included "sub-human" Slavs, althought Hitler had categorically forbidden the use of Russians by the German forces (an order that was largely ignored by divisional commanders). Their utilization not only occurred, it occurred on a vast and vital scale. It is a strange and ironic truth that without Rissian aid Germany's war against Stalin could not have continued as long as it did. Desertion from the Red Army was massive in the early stages of the 1941 invasion. Many of the defectors offered their services to the Wehrmacht. Reluctant to turn away willing hands, the army took them on, albeit "off the record", as Hiwis. They may have been given uniforms and rations but old prejudices died hard -- there was a kind of racist wupremacy pleasure in seeing Hiwis digging ditches and latrines. But, then, especially during the winter of 1941-42, hundreds of Hiwis were sucked [pg 172]into the vortex of battle and became de facto combatants. Their courage and steadiness under fire, and their uncomplaining fortitude in the face of hardship and danger, won for them the respect of the German soldier at the front and did much to break down the psychological barrier between "sub-human" Slavs and "supermen" Aryans created by Nazi propaganda. Berlin would have never agreed, of course, and so the German Army never declared the Hiwis, and thus thousands of Russians never appeared on the recorded strengths of German divisions in the East. By the of 1941, around 150,000 Russians were in the employ of the Wehrmacht. Less than a year later, this had risen to 500,000; of these, some 200,000 were in combat units. By the end of 1943, this figure had doubled. Large proportions of this manpower pool were later absorbed into the Waffen-SS.

Western and Eastern foreign nationals.

Continuation of this book on page 172.

[Retributar]

Yes! ' Jersey John ',...you have presented 'very revealing' and insightful information!.

I had known only to a limited degree about what your saying!...but, didn't realize that it was to that extreme extent!.

It's a good thing that 'Herr Hitler' had his attitudes and ethic's,...for if it was not the case!...the 'Russian's ' may very well have been defeated by 'Germany'!.

Maybey...a 'MOD'/'SCRIPT' could be made to incorporate this possibility???.

[JerseyJohn]

Appreciated, Retributar

-- I agree, Hitler liked to say that one good kick on the Soviet door would bring the whole house down. But it never occurred to him that he needed the help of the people inside. It also never occurred to him that they'd be so disgusted with Stalin's rule as to actually welcome the invaders and join them. As you said, if he'd been more realistic and less of a psychotic racist he'd have had very good chances indeed.

In leu of a mod on this, I think choosing to not have the Russian Partisan option might be the equivalent of having a German invasion that was sympathetic to the Russian people. That would free up a huge amount of Axis military resources.

-- The purists would say this is a ridiculous premise. Well, yes, if you have to see WWII as only having been possible with Hitler's livid racism, it is. But if you see it as another possibility, German fascism without Hitler's racist hatreds, then it makes perfect sense. I think Germany could have rebuilt, along the lines it did, and with an expansionist fascist regime, without even having it's official anti-Semitism. At that point it gets into alternate history, of course, but I think it's an interesting premise all the same.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yep, Sir Jersey is exposing the truth. 300,000 Russians died fighting FOR the Nazis. 300,000 Romanians, died fight FOR the Nazis.

300,000 is the same number that died for the USA in WW-2.

[JerseyJohn]

Thank you, Brother Rambo. Appreciated.

[jon_j_rambo]

Another Uncle & several relatives were put in death camps in Romania, run by Romanian/German killers, they escaped! That Uncle ended up living in Washington D.C., worked as an attorney. He died about 10 years ago.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Sir Jersey --- That's why you were 'Made'.

[JerseyJohn]

Thank you Brother Rambo. An honor I've always, and will always, greatly appreciate.

[Chris G]

There should be garrison units in SC2. They were wildly used by both sides in the conflict. I would prefer to have them rather then the unbalanced (regarding cost) armies. They could represent units under training, rest, convalescent or simply units with low battle value like Volkssturm and so on. (This doesn’t mean that VS was used in Russia, so don’t start that pls.)

I try to avoid correcting ppl regarding history, cause many others (unfortunately a lot of them with bad knowledge) already do. But one of SMGs comments really needs a correction. SMG writes:

“You can add ost battalions also, russian POW gathered in small units, with a core of german watchdog soldiers, they fought very poorly and were not used for police/garrisoning.”

They were used in almost all roles during the last years, even thus policing and garrisoning was rare. I can mention that they for instance played a significant role during D-Day something that most ppl don’t know.

Also they fought extremely well countless times, but have been forgotten. The Germans didn’t want to give those credits of obvious reasons, the allied kept silent for propaganda reason and they could never tell their story because they got executed by the Communists in the end of the war. (Those captured by the allies was sent to execution in Soviet.)

[JerseyJohn]

Great points, Chris.

In the City Anti-Partisan Garrisons thread, where we're discussing exactly the same topic you've posted above. Hope you'll bring it there as well, it will help shed some light on the subject.

[murks]

Interesting thread. I always thought that as axis I needed to buy some armies early on, to have a strike force, and Corps later, just to garrison and fight partisans. Relying more on corps may make my game stronger. I wasn't even aware that there is no difference in defence value.

[SMG42]

point taken Chris and others. I recognize I forgot about hiwis.

As for the ost batallions on DDay, I differ. They performed badly, there is always the possibility of an exception, I won't deny that.

I still disagree about the initial post (on this thread or another) where it was said that the majority of the garrisoning units where not german ones. Perhaps midly true in Russia, but definitively false in all western europe.

And I'm not speaking here of militiamen like the ones of Vichy either.

[TaoJah]

I don't think you should reduce the cost of armies to 185. Their cost is already ALOT lower then two corpses, because you also have to take the extra costs of HQs into account.

5 corpses + 1 HQ = 5*100 + 350 = 850.

5 armies + 1 HQ = 5*200 + 350 = 1350.

So 5 armies only cost 158% of 5 corpses, not 200%.

[Liam]

Again the subject of Russians betraying their own is brought up, I understand! Living under a Tyrant the Wermacht in the field may have been much less of a Tyrant. I wonder how many of these Russians were Russian Occuppied Nations and not Pure Blooded?

You also have to take into consideration in "Losses" that 300 thousand Romanians or Russians dying is not the equivelant to 300 thousand Americans. You see we invested more into our Men, an American Soldat was worth likely 10 of their enemy. He was better trained, better equiped and more highly valued

On the other hand so were Germans and British. As far as the rest of the World, Manpower was expendable in most cases

Hitler was WW2, no other wise Commander and Chief would've done what he did, he could've negotiated to get back the land connecting Prussia and Germany instead of War with such a Massive Military. He could've had a SuperPower potential. He was the cause of WW2, his greed, no other Great Leader of Germany would have the audacity to believe he could defeat the entire World with Italy and Japan as Aides.. Maybe with the help of another Great Power

[Guest Mike]

Russians surrendered to the Anglo-Americans at teh rate of about 1000/week by the end of 1944 - they didn't mind fighting the communitsts, but they had no beef with the West - motivation really does matte!!

There were also German "satelite" states in Russia - I recall reading (in a book on partisanwarfare I have) of one such that maintained an army of 4 infantry and 1 armoured brigades, and kept it's territory completely clear of partizans for the whole 2-3 years of its existance.

The loss of resources due to nazi ideaology was a fatal weakness - especially when you think of the human resources of 12 million killed in the concentration camps (half of them Jews - we often forget the "other" 6 million or so) and the effort it took to do that plus the loss in labour that was the result!

as for garrisons - the Germans had a number of "Security" units IIRC, of division size, and equipped with captured and obsolescent equipment.

But they never had enough of them.

I'm quite happy that the game doesn't include them because it also doesn't include the 10's of thousands of small partisan attacks across Russia each year.

both partisan activity and counter-measures are pitched at a scale that are appropriate for each other. 2nd line forces can be represented by unimproved corps, but I find it useful to have a couple of good corps (motorised & max infantry & AT tech) lurking behind German lines to cope with breakthroughs and partisans.

[Sombra]

IMHO : Right now corps are overrated compared to armies. I would like to see a small raise in the defense value of the armies.

There should be quite a differnece if 60.000 or 200.000 people defend a position.