For all you "I want to beat Terif" players =)

[SeaMonkey]

True Ag, but what he's saying is you shouldn't know how many units it will take to deter USSR aggression/readiness to DoW.

My take would be as readiness inclines for USSR involvement, in order to manipulate the percent, in conjunction with diplomacy, you would need to station more troops in close proximity to the border.

Perhaps 2 tiles from the border, perhaps on the border, you never know, this is the variable that always changes like Stalin's whimsical personality.

[Liam]

SeaMonkey,

The Reds never knew exactly what was on the Border, look how Barbarossa Buildup Went. Germans flew longrange missions into the Soviet Union for finding Soviet Airfields. The Reds never knew of these missions. What triggers Red Readiness should be say 7 Random possibilities in regards to Polish border:

4 units may or may not trigger the 3-4% per turn

Maybe it will require 5 units this particular game randomely, maybe it will require 6.. Maybe 6 will be too much and 3 is all that is required. Maybe any amount triggers a 5-6%, and maybe making Russian readiness invisible without say Intel Tech 2 or 3 would be nice as well! This would do away with the requirement for Bidding for the Axis that will soon take place as Terif figures out the perfect Axis Strategies and men like him.

Randomely Percentage may Rise anyways because of Stalin's Paranoid Mindset

Soviet Spies with Intel tech capture Germany Officer and plans are released making a 5-10% per turn? (not an impossiblity) after a certian time period

These are wild ideas a bit, maybe more mundane triggers are better but regardless making them invisible makes it impossible for me to say that in Sept. I'm going to Smash SeaMonkey's Russians.. When I find out in July I have Reds preparing for War.. It makes the perfect Axis Strategy a little imperfect, flexability must be taken into account.

We all follow the same routine usually, break it.

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

True Ag, but what he's saying is you shouldn't know how many units it will take to deter USSR aggression/readiness to DoW.

My take would be as readiness inclines for USSR involvement, in order to manipulate the percent, in conjunction with diplomacy, you would need to station more troops in close proximity to the border.

Perhaps 2 tiles from the border, perhaps on the border, you never know, this is the variable that always changes like Stalin's whimsical personality.

[SeaMonkey]

I'm with the gameplan Liam, sounds great.

But we also will need the possibility for a decline in readiness also.

It can't always be going positive. If you happen to catch the right combination, diplomacy chits and unit deployments you actually get a reduction.

[Ron]

I don't think SC2 fares too badly in simulating the historical aspects re the buildup of the Russo-German war, ie German is free to attack when she is ready during 41 and Russia will have achieved her 'war preparations' by 42 forcing Germany's hand.

The Soviets were fully aware of German intentions from the start. They were designing and wargaming plans in 1940, both offensive and defensive. The idea that Stalin wanted to go to war in 1942 is questionable however it was very clear the Soviets would not achieve their military preparations until 1942 at the earliest and Stalin wished to delay/stall any German aggressivenes until then.

Soviet intelligence was detecting German offensive preparations as early as April 41. To say they never knew what was on the border is not factual. Between April and June the Soviets accelerated their mobilizations and calling up reservists.

Yes the Soviets were poorly deployed initially but that was due to Stalin's fixation on keeping the peace.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Blashy:

This is something I've noticed since beta, if a player got down and studied every script and their causes and worked them down mathematically on their causes, he would most likely master the game and be unbeatable.

This is what Terif did in SC and what he's done in SC2, my hat off to him for this because even I as a beta tester have not gotten down to this level.

you say that like it is a good thing??!

Thanks for the warning - when I play I take 10-15 minutes over a move vs a human player - I play by "seat of the pants", and I'll always get beaten by someone with this level of micro-understanding, so there's no point me playing him!

[SeaMonkey]

That's just it Ron, we're smarting than that. The Med is obviously a better gamble than USSR.

Since we roleplay as the supreme commander we want the ability to thwart a badly preconceived invasion of USSR.

Yes, sometimes things cascade out of our control and that's what we are advocating also, but there should always be a very large window of opportunity to change things from the historical set.

No one knows exactly when the hierarchy of the USSR would deem an invasion of Germany appropriate, we can only hypothesize. We want to create the unknown, therefor we need a larger timeset for an indisputable action to take place.

Perhaps late 43 would not be to farfetched for a Red Army incursion into German territory?

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Liam:

The Reds never knew exactly what was on the Border, look how Barbarossa Buildup Went. Germans flew longrange missions into the Soviet Union for finding Soviet Airfields. The Reds never knew of these missions.

Rubbish - there are records of VVS units requesting permission to intercept these flights and being refused.

There's even one sequence of photos from a German photo-recce plane that shows a Sov fighter (an I-153) directly underneath it in several frames!

Stalin refused permission to attack them because he was afraid of "provoking" Germany!

[SeaMonkey]

Your right SO, but this is about the historical unkown as it was for the entities of power back in the 40s.

Just like you said about playing Terif you expect to never win. I say rubbish. No matter what your gaming style is, there should be some inkling of a chance, giving enough beginnings, you will eventually find that acorn and succeed.

The question is can you persevere through that many games.

That creates the ray of hope, the challenger can always have a chance to knockout the champion.

Lord help you on the rematch.

[Agamemnon]

Under the system Liam describes, I wouldn't do anythnig to try and slow the Soviet readiness. Way too many variables. You would never figure it out in time anyway. Unless your Mr. micro-understanding. The way I would approach this kind of system would be, just throw it out there and hope for the best. Like a dice game, throw your money out there and hope the dice go your way. I would rather play a wargame instead. I have played dice many times. The excitement is very appealing. But when I sit down to play a wargame, I want something more like chess. Something with strategy, with some variables so it won't be boring after a few games. I don't think it's good that it would be "well I lost another one, the USSR DOWed in August 1940. :eek: Well let's set the table up for the come out roll."

[Liam]

That's just it, I'm not saying take things to the extreme. Though a subtle change would allow for room for a person to explore each and every SC2 campaign. I for instance playing you know that I want to put 4 chits, 3 chits there... in the first 5-10 rounds. You're going to play me friend and by the time Barby hits I'm going to simply smoosh your Reds and you won't know what hit you. Even if I ignore pretty much ever other Theatre, because I just know how to arrange my HQs, Units, etc.. and I know how to keep the Red Readiness down there so I can pump out the maximum Grey Units to kill 'em.

There is no chance in hell either way you will be able stop me, in 10 games you'll beat me once? Why?

Because I know this chessboard better than you, and 9 out of 10 xs Terif will beat me for the same reason..

This is not Chess, look at history, there was some chance factors.. Hitler didn't add up, Hmmmm, "Paris gives me so many MPPs, The Axis Minors, Balkans, Scandanavia, that leaves me enough cake to kill off the USSR before the Brits and USA can hurt my flank." Did He? He couldn't calculate what exactly would happen he had to guess, but it doesn't have to be pure chance, the guess can be a good one.. and the result doesn't have to be as dramatic as Dice..

Even though I'm certian with the dice variably in the combat and tech aspect of this game if it were removed Terif and players like him would never lose a single game

A little bit of chance in other areas other than combat and tech would be nice, there is already but not enough is what SeaMonkey and me are saying just enough to spice up a Campaign.. just so they cannot be calculated, because are you calculating anyways if I beat you 9 outta 10 xs? Wanna put it to the test sometime

Originally posted by Agamemnon:

Under the system Liam describes, I wouldn't do anythnig to try and slow the Soviet readiness. Way too many variables. You would never figure it out in time anyway. Unless your Mr. micro-understanding. The way I would approach this kind of system would be, just throw it out there and hope for the best. Like a dice game, throw your money out there and hope the dice go your way. I would rather play a wargame instead. I have played dice many times. The excitement is very appealing. But when I sit down to play a wargame, I want something more like chess. Something with strategy, with some variables so it won't be boring after a few games. I don't think it's good that it would be "well I lost another one, the USSR DOWed in August 1940. :eek: Well let's set the table up for the come out roll."

[Liam]

Maybe but obviously it didn't make any difference? Like Hitler ignoring Normandy for Calais, Stalin seemed to ignore the threat altogether by the losses

I have heard stories there were hidden roads from Russian territory into German occuppied Europe, and that the Reds were planning their own offensive.

Regardless the Reds were caught with their pants down

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam:

The Reds never knew exactly what was on the Border, look how Barbarossa Buildup Went. Germans flew longrange missions into the Soviet Union for finding Soviet Airfields. The Reds never knew of these missions.

Rubbish - there are records of VVS units requesting permission to intercept these flights and being refused.

There's even one sequence of photos from a German photo-recce plane that shows a Sov fighter (an I-153) directly underneath it in several frames!

Stalin refused permission to attack them because he was afraid of "provoking" Germany! </font>

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Liam:

Maybe but obviously it didn't make any difference? Like Hitler ignoring Normandy for Calais, Stalin seemed to ignore the threat altogether by the losses

Absolutely Stalin was even told the date and time of the attack a week before it happened by hte British, but refused to believe it as he though it was a plot by the brits to get him into the war, and he refused permission for his troops to take up defensive positions.

Hitler wasn't the only insane dictator in WW2 making idiotic decisions!

[Blashy]

The only difference between Hitler and Stalin is that Stalin had one moment of sanity and decided to let his commanders make military decisions.

Apart from that, they were probably clones.

[Agamemnon]

I still think having no idea when your going to be blind sided isn't much fun. It could next turn, next year, never. 1939, 1940, 1941. It would be a crap shoot. You might as well roll into Russia the turn after Poland surrenders. If Russia is going to be the absolute wild card, I would just DOW the USSR in 1939. Why wait? Germany would have to keep everything in the east just in case. Just keep those doggies rollin. Get the war over in 1940. I see no reason to make any plans to the contary. If its going to be "USSR joins the War! They roll into Polamd with 9 tanks, 5 air fleets, 10 armies, all teched up. It,s late 1940, they were getting 350 MMP's since 1939. Who knew! They just got lucky I guess. It's just not fun. All because someone knows the game real well, and can beat anybody anytime. I don't think the answer is to turn the game into a crap shoot. I think most people just play the game like Stalin's Organist. I know I don't have the game down to a science. I think their are plenty of variables with the way mortals will play the game.

[Cary]

The only difference between Hitler and Stalin is that Stalin had one moment of sanity and decided to let his commanders make military decisions.

Apart from that, they were probably clones.

When you think about it, that's actually a pretty big difference.

Hitler was an aspiring artist whose aspirations ended in the gutter. Stalin's original job in the Communist Party was to keep the files of party membership cards in order (and to purge those cards that had become irrelevant).

Two different flavors of the banality of evil...

As to trying to avoid war with Hitler: he had just eviscerated the Red Army a few years previous, and he knew how World War I went against the Germans with the French still fighting.... Seems like it was a wise plan...

The rumor is that Stalin was drunk and non functional from June 22nd through early July.

On the other side, Speer recalled that almost the entirety of the Nazi government was drunk or high for the last six months of the war. Goering's drug rehab at the hands of the U.S. Army was pretty brutal.

[ June 26, 2006, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: Cary ]

[Liam]

ROFL, I didn't say totally random at those points, I said the triggers random enough where you cannot say that between October and November if I play the game exactly like this, you've got a Barbarossa. More like, between June 22nd to Feb '42.

Hitler was one thing Lucky, he consulted Astrologer for some of his decisions, the Nazis had a firm belief in the Paranormal. They chased the Holy Grail

In all reality do you think a group of men who believe they're descended from Tibetan SuperMen from Outer Space are really going to succeed in a realistic War?

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Cary:

Depends on the source. But he made his first public appearence on july 3.

[Agamemnon]

More like, between June 22nd to Feb '42.

I wasn't getting the time frame. Sounds a lot more reasonable.

[Maverik]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Blashy:

This is something I've noticed since beta, if a player got down and studied every script and their causes and worked them down mathematically on their causes, he would most likely master the game and be unbeatable.

This is what Terif did in SC and what he's done in SC2, my hat off to him for this because even I as a beta tester have not gotten down to this level.

you say that like it is a good thing??!

Thanks for the warning - when I play I take 10-15 minutes over a move vs a human player - I play by "seat of the pants", and I'll always get beaten by someone with this level of micro-understanding, so there's no point me playing him! </font>

[Blashy]

Hahaha, calculated all possibilities. That's hilarious.

What a dumbass.

[Fartknock3r]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Hahaha, calculated all possibilities. That's hilarious.

What a dumbass.

Ya well, he was a nazi...