More Thoughts on AI (Hi, Edwin)

[santabear]

Interesting thoughts about AI from

www.combatsim.com

Title: Thoughts on AI in Strategic Games

By: Jim Cobb

Date: 2005-11-13 891

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Thoughts on AI in Strategic Games

I have a long-standing policy on not critiquing games I review until the review is published. I do this in deference to the publishers and am not changing. However, I’m playing Crown of Glory and World War II: The First Blitzkrieg for review and questions raised about AI on forums and news groups have made me think why such games may not play out historically. Here are some thoughts:

The AI, dumb as it is tactically, will never be as stupid as the Third Alliance in 1805 or the Allied High Command in 1940. Its side’s strengths and weaknesses will be known to it and will allow a more rational concentration of force and effort. We won’t see a General Mack squandering time and resource at Ulm nor will the units of four armies just sit around as in 1940.

Perhaps more importantly, the AI won’t be overawed when the player is Napoleon, Lee or the Wehrmacht. The AI has no psyche, no emotional baggage so it won’t be mesmerized by previous experiences or propaganda. Designers may attempt to imitate doctrinal fallacies but it won’t throw away what advantages or capabilities it might have.

Therefore, players should not expect a replay of history. Dumb as AIs are, they won’t be paralyzed like the Austrians or Gamelin. Players will win eventually, but they will do so only by doing something new with historical parameters, assuming the game has those parameters.

Given all this, what should gamers expect? When playing on defense, the AI should expect the human player to try the historical strategy first. Players have a mania about doing better than Rommel or Napoleon using their own approach. The AI should see this coming and prepare counter-offensives, concentrating in better positions, moving on flanks and so forth. When players get inventive, the AI should try one of two extremes: either a surprise attack early on or a precipitate retreat to gain time to evaluate the human’s intention. In the latter case, the AI should then decide which level to try for and then allocate resources accordingly.

AI offense is another matter entirely. Using a historical approach against a human with the most meager knowledge of the era is suicide. The player will see “A” and react in a different way than the historical defender then. The AI should think out of the box. “AIs don’t think” some exclaim. Why not? Half the key to winning in real life or games is psychological. Programmers should understand that nobody reacts well to surprises. AIs could either be programmed to make a very powerful attack somewhere to inspire “shock and awe”. Conversely, the AI can “ice” the human like a defending football team calling a timeout right before the field goal kicker signals for the snap. Wait a few turns before implementing the main plan, launch a few feints, reconnoiter a while. The human will get nervous, become tentative and question his dispositions or even try a premature counterattack.

These concepts would make games more suspenseful and exciting. I’m no programmer but I would be surprised if game developers couldn’t implement these ideas. Anything would be better than the present obvious AI options, giving the AI hidden advantages or--most unworthy of all--surrender writing good AI to PBEM or online play.

[Edwin P.]

Santabear, many thanks for this post.

It makes many good points, especially ; "Programmers should understand that nobody reacts well to surprises."

In essence that is the core of a good AI.

As for personality, though its not important and will not be included in Sc2, I would like to see the AI exhibit personality in SC2 - using the comments that one freqently see PBEM or TCP/IP players make.

[pzgndr]

This may be an area where SC2 might excel over time. As players experiment with the editor and start to customize their solo games, you'll find there's a LOT of variability and randomness you can introduce into the game. Consider if Germany has recurring unit event scripts with a low chance that a new sub or tank group just appears. Well, the AI will dutifully employ these new toys someplace, and perhaps shift focus and surprise you. You in turn will have to react. This could get as exciting as you could handle. I'm not saying this would be historical or realistic, but would make for interesting games with a lot of replayability.

[Ike99]

To be honest I don't think I have ever seen a good A.I. in a PC wargame game. I just don't think were there yet. Most games give the PC player more resources or something to level the playing field level and keep us human players interested. Sometimes you hear people complain about some wargames A.I. but In truth there all pretty bad. Some are better than others. I can't name a PC wargame that I have played that made me go "Man, this A.I. just keeps beating me time and again." that was playing on a level field.

So im very forgiving on games A.I. Maybe we should all be careful what we wish for anyways. When we have wargames with A.I.s as good and intuitive as we are... well soon we will probably have versions of C3PO flying our airplanes, working in our factories and fighting our wars right? Then some big muscular robot comes from the future trying to kill a guy named John Connor right? You get what I'm saying.

I'm of the opinion the best opponent for everyone is ourselves. What do I mean? Well if we bought a new game and tried it. Then the A.I. crushed us time and again it wouldn't be any fun. If the A.I. was ourselves it would be at the same experience level and skill level as us at any given time. Be perfect.

How could this be done?

Well back in the day I saw an example.

The game is quite obscure but maybe somone else here has played it and can comment also.

There is a paper and cardboard game thats long out of print called The Peloponnesian War by Columbia games. In the game the player competed against himself by switching sides during key events of the war that were triggered by his actions. Basicly when you started winning you were forced to switch side. Yet the design of the game kept the player motivated to do the best he could for current side he was playing. It was a novel approach and very effective. It's difficult to explain in detail here how it works but there is a copy of the rules online, here is a link to check if your interested.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/1678/Peloponnesian+War

It would be a novel and fresh approach to a PC game if a designer did away with an A.I. completely and built a PC game engine using this system for solitare play. How it could be done to effectively fit into a World War 2 game or some othergame would take alot of brainstorming and creativity but it could be done.

It would certainly keep from having to build an A.I. and programmers and designers would love this. Maybe one day we will see something like it. Be interesting.

[Edwin P.]

Now, thats an idea.

In the game the player competed against himself by switching sides during key events of the war that were triggered by his actions.

Have the AI track the relative strength of both sides. If the AI is losing it may ask the human player to switch sides once per game. If the human accepts he gets a bonus added to his victory point score.

[ February 08, 2006, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Retributar]

I still like the regular AI...im not at-all interested in 'Switching Sides'!.

AI's are not perfect, but overall i find them acceptably O.K.!. In other words, im quite satisfied with them!.

[Ike99]

Edwin P.-Now, thats an idea.

It really is quite a brilliant concept that has stuck with me. The game is quite obscure however and I think designers didn't see the game as well as many players. It is the only game I have ever seen then or sence that takes this approach to solitare play. Didn't stay in print very long as it's subject isn't so popular. But still brilliant idea. Might work even better in a PC format.

[santabear]

Well, if it were possible to toggle between AI and hotseat mode, that would do it.

I've suggested before that it would be good if the human player could take over for AI for a few turns--the idea of swapping sides is a logical extension of that idea.

If the game could be re-opened in a different mode, the existing machinery would work:

1. Save game

2. Quit

3. "Load Saved Game"

4. BUT this would take you to the "Choose sides" page (which it doesn't now). Just select the opposite side, game opens, etc.

Alternatively, there could be a way to enter "hotseat" mode from within an AI game (funciton key?), and then to go back via the "Choose sides" page. So:

1. Hit fn key to toggle hotseat mode

2. Play in hotseat mode or toggle again and choose your side.

I think the notion of leaving and re-entering the game and choosing sides is better than simply a "switch sides" button.

SB

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by santabear:

I think the notion of leaving and re-entering the game and choosing sides is better than simply a "switch sides" button.

As do I.

I trust it will indeed be possible

To work it out to a common satisfaction.

An "original idea" - reintroduced,

That is old as gaming itself,

And hardly "stormed up"

By one lone game designer.

Mr Bill:

... there's a LOT of variability and randomness you can introduce into the game. Consider if Germany has recurring unit event scripts with a low chance that a new sub or tank group just appears. Well, the AI will dutifully employ these new toys someplace

Sure, and, as I have already done

In the 1941-42 North Afrika scenario.

For replayability, AND

So to assist the AI as necessary, IE,

You have 10 separate units,

5 for each for each of the Allies

And Axis,

And you can, pre-game, pick & choose which,

If any, you'd like to include.

Not to omit, and, to re-mind all,

The new! AI Scripts are

Becoming... fantastic. :cool:

There is absolutely NO REASON,

none!

That any single game player, novice or

Doddering Grog alike,

Cannot - VERY simply, and qua quickly,

CREATE the game of their choosing.

The number of "variables" is not infinite,

But more... an ever verdant, and

Tropically flourishing!

Garden of... earthly delights. :cool:

[Lars]

The first post makes some interesting points. The only thing I would add is you also need a random map. Let's face it, we all know the best invasion routes and chokepoints. But on a random map? What if there was a land bridge to England? Or perhaps the Channel is only the width of a broad river? Well, you see what I'm getting at. Anyone can run a campaign with a history book in one hand. But throw out the Atlas, and suddenly that history book is no good anymore.

Probably gonna be the best part of SC2.

[Ike99]

The number of "variables" is not infinite,

But more... an ever verdant, and

Tropically flourishing!

Garden of... earthly delights.

I've noticed a certain style in your post Dave. Sometimes however they are kinda hard to understand. Thats the bad thing.

The good thing though is I think I have discovered your true Identity.

[Desert Dave]

ike 99:

I've noticed a certain style in your post Dave. Sometimes however they are kinda hard to understand. Thats the bad thing.

Well, Miss Chievous,

I'd disagree.

It's actually a good thing,

A sun-filled kind of thing,

And I don't mind

That you like it... in the dark.

The good thing though is I think I have discovered your true Identity.

It's NEVER a good idea

To stare long, and

Lovingly... into the looking-glass,

And admire yourself,

And then imagine it is

Somebody else entire.

It is a COMMON mistake,

Often made by those who are, ummm,

As we say out here in these desert climes,

All hat and -> no cattle.

[Lars]

Isn't that supposed to be "all hat < no cattle"?

[Desert Dave]

Isn't that supposed to be "all hat < no cattle"?

No, that depiction, or rendition,

Or whatever it's called in "peng-ese,"

Is meant to imply:

A thoughtless outlaw,

Lying on the scrub ground,

His little hat fallen away

[... look sideways, to yer right,

don't that there look like

such as I just described? Or,

am I truly loony? LOLOLOL!)

Lying forlorn, it is, yep,

But worse, utterly

Forgotten.

In the BIG SHEBANG... scheme of things,

It ain't amount to much.

Perhaps, one wild west windy day,

Covered over even,

Far as you ken see

(... kerchief over eyes,

Indian wise)

With... dust. :eek:

See? What was intended, Lars?

[santabear]

Chaos wears many hats,

Yet cattle seek Nirvana.

Your posts pain Krishna.

SB-san

[ February 09, 2006, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: santabear ]

[John C]

Could someone point me to the SC2 forum please? I seem to have somehow ended up in the bad audition portion of poetry idol by mistake. Does anyone know where the game discussions are?

[Desert Dave]

Does anyone know where the game discussions are?

All those headings, and YOU

Can't find 'em?

LOLOLOL!

Look,

This is an insignificant

And, temporary

Disagreement

Between ME and Ike99.

No doubt we'll discover that neither

Of the Other

Is any outcast Daemon, yes?

And so.

The rest of you nosy Cats can

Just butt the hell out and KEEP yer

Personal pearls of wisdom,

We don't really require them.

IF you don't LIKE something,

It's pretty f***king simple:

Don't READ it.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by John C:

Could someone point me to the SC2 forum please? I seem to have somehow ended up in the bad audition portion of poetry idol by mistake. Does anyone know where the game discussions are?

Stop telling people to take it in the ass.

[Ike99]

Look,

This is an insignificant And, temporary

Disagreement Between ME and Ike99.No doubt we'll discover that neither

Of the Other Is any outcast Daemon, yes? And so.

IF you don't LIKE something, It's pretty f***king simple:

Don't READ it.

@Riddler...Well at least you consistant. As usual, I still don't know what your talking about. We were talking about computer A.I. in wargames and different systems that could be used.

What are you talking about?

Actually Riddler I don't have to argue or debate you and I won't. It's so much easier just to sit back and watch you make an *ss of yourself quoting bad poetry.

However I fear if you continue the next controversial topic will not be hexes or grids but are the scenarios going to be any good and balanced based upon the IQ levels displayed by one of its playtesters.

Could someone point me to the SC2 forum please? I seem to have somehow ended up in the bad audition portion of poetry idol by mistake. Does anyone know where the game discussions are?

No it's not a bad poetry audition, the riddler is lose on the SC forum. Put up the bat signal someone.

[Desert Dave]

**** Ike99,

You don't know a damn thing about me,

Where I been,

What I done,

Why.

So?

Wherefrom all this across-great-distance

2-dimension insight? :confused:

OK, so it is NOT a "temporary" disagreement.

Fine.

I gave it a shot.

It's a personal vendetta then?

LOLOLOL,

**** again,

I can live with that,

I've handled FAR worse than yer

Narcissistic bull ****.

But, ol' pal?

From here on out it's gonna be

ONE SIDED as all get out,

Cuz I ain't gonna get down in the slop

With the Pigs

And wallow around.

I'll just get dirty,

And them Pigs?

Why, they just LOVE it.

[John C]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

The rest of you nosy Cats can

Just butt the hell out and KEEP yer

Personal pearls of wisdom,

We don't really require them.

IF you don't LIKE something,

It's pretty f***king simple:

Don't READ it.

Originally posted by Kuni:

Stop telling people to take it in the ass.

Ummm... I'm not quite sure how to respond to all the vitriol that erupted from my silly little joking comment. I know we are talking about WAR games here, but I always assumed we could do so with a degree of sensibility and civility instead of sinking into a verbal melee of vulgarity. I obviously was wrong. Don't worry; I'll definitely steer clear of your personal out-of-control completely off-topic anger-spewing profanity filled thread. Enjoy.

[Ike99]

@Riddler

**** Ike99,

You don't know a damn thing about me,

Where I been,

What I done,

Your right I don't and to be honest have no interest in finding out.

So?

Wherefrom all this across-great-distance

2-dimension insight?

Hmmm...really no clue on this. Probably for the better anyway.

OK, so it is NOT a "temporary" disagreement. Fine.I gave it a shot.It's a personal vendetta then?

We were talking about the A.I. in PC wargames, no where was your name mentioned by me or anyone else on this thread. Scroll up and look. Your the one who seems to have an obsession. There is medicine and couseling for that though so we won't give up on you if it makes you feel any better.

LOLOLOL,

Is it Joker or Riddler or is this the split personality coming out? BTW, no one is laughing with you.

**** again,I can live with that,

I've handled FAR worse than yer Narcissistic bull ****.But, ol' pal? From here on out it's gonna be ONE SIDED as all get out,Cuz I ain't gonna get down in the slop With the Pigs

And wallow around.I'll just get dirty,

And them Pigs? Why, they just LOVE it.

All this stuff here is really not worthy of comment.

Don't worry moderators. I will not acknowledge this persons existance as long as he is in this condition. I'll let him ramble on and keep my post on a civil and intellectually comprehensive level.

[santabear]

Back to the topic: AI

I keep hearing how no AI can compete with human intelligence.

For example, AI cannot write haiku. It would be completely at a loss as to how to proceed in this thread.

Yet, somehow, I sense from this thread that even human intelligence has its limitations at times...

...maybe the AI will have its day soon.

[Ottosmops]

SB

I keep hearing how no AI can compete with human intelligence.

25 years ago intelligent people said that a chess programm will never beat a grandmaster. Nowadays they can play as strong as the best humans.

IMHO it is only a question of time and how many ressources are invested until the AI can beat humans in complex games like SC.

A few weeks ago I read an interesting book on this topic:

Hierarchical Bayesian Optimization Algorithm

by Martin Pelikan

But certainly it will last still a few years from now until such Evolutionary Algorithms will be applied to computer games.

[Retributar]

'AI' WILL ULTIMATELY TRIUMPH...It can be no other way!.