Elie Wiesel on Oprah - Editorial on miscellany . . .

[Jim Mason]

My wife made me watch Oprah last night - it was her and Elie Wiesel wandering around several parts of Auschwitz with him talking about the experience. Through it all, they had photographs and movies, as well as the two of them touring the on-site museum where they have mountains of human hair, shoes, etc.

It was nothing new, but moving none the less.

It made me think about the people involved, that not only could they do that, but that THEY TOOK PICTURES! Any comparison with Abu Ghraib is questionable, but again, those morons took pictures too.

My wife doesn't like all the war books displayed prominently in the living room, where my kids see them and ask questions. She's afraid that they glamorize war - that my kids see pictures of all the cool tanks and fighter planes and ephemera of war and think that is what it's all about.

I remember the jaw-dropping astonishment (and that's not really the right word) when I started reading about the Holocaust in Junior and Senior High School. It was both fascinating and repellent, amazed that something so monstrous could occur.

I continue to find this era of history fascinating. I have not lost sight of the horrors involved, but I also think my wife has a good point too. As an adult, I have the ability to hold several somewhat countervailing views in my head and separate what really matters from that which is merely interesting or a passing fancy. That's something my kids will need to learn, and I have to be careful to stress the right things when I talk about this hobby and interest with them. They are interested in good guys and bad guys, the right and the wrong. In this war (and probably most war) it seems like there is wrong and less wrong. Because of the nature of war, the good guys end up doing horrible things. Kids don't have the ability to understand that.

Then I confuse them even more by taking the wrong side! When I play SC (or any other war game) I like to take the German side and try to win - it's a challenge. At least I think that's why I do it. There is something inherently interesting about the Nazi's - and getting to play them in a game is an opportunity that I rarely pass up. And part of me recognizes what I'm really trying to achieve in that simulation, regardless of how pretend it is, despite the abstraction of only playing the military/industrial/political parts (and in saying that, what's really left?) I am attempting to alter history and let evil triumph. Whenever I'm not wholly comfortable with labeling the Nazi's as evil, or trying to rationalize it by comparing it to Stalin, or whatever, I need to think about those death camps.

Does anyone have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to suggest about this fascination with Nazi's?

I have no idea what I am trying to accomplish with this post - just sharing my feelings and opinions. Something which I am totally free to do thanks to war. And the editors of this board are also totally free to get rid of it, also thanks to war. There will be no repercussions that are in any way meaningful - the absolute worst would be total banning or something, and that would be so easy to get around anyway (new yahoo e-mail address . . .) that I doubt it's something they even bother with.

Have a great Memorial Day weekend.

Jim

[Blashy]

It is not a fascination with Nazi's.

But more of a fascination with "what if".

We all want to play Napoleon and win. The same for the Rebels in the ACW, winning as Central Powers in WW1. We want a Soviet vs. Nato and see if we can win as the Soviets.

We want to relive history different from how it occured, without the bad (or good) consequences and games now offer this.

[JerseyJohn]

It does get embarrassing having all those book covers with swastikas, often too large and inappropriate considering the book probably isn't about nazism. An idiot nephew who practically lived at our house for a few years, repaid me later for getting him a job by telling my co-workers that I'm a nazi. "You ought to see the books he reads, all nazi stuff." Well, there's a moral there.

[Desert Dave]

Superior post, JM,

And I agree.

That humans ARE "fascinated" with evil,

And,

IMHO that is "normal."

How else to internalize, understand, contrast

And, subsequently, serve as model and teacher

For your own, and other impressionable youth?

It is a "catharsis"

And it enables us to surface

Our own "shadow nature"

And appreciate that "civilization"

Is a VERY tenuous and shallow accomodation.

Once you full well KNOW, deep down,

Your own "lizard longings"

Then you ARE able to keep them

Tethered and under control.

Not until.

I would imagine that almost everyone

Would LIKE to "act out" the bad guy,

Which is why the "cult following"

Of such "bad cats" as

James Dean

Jim Morrison

Hell's Angels

Oakland Raiders (LOL)

For just a very few American examples.

Yet, it is a fine line,

And most will not cross over into:

Outright "anti-social" activity

That would HARM another living thing.

The ones that do are "socio-paths"

Who need be put away

For a very long time.

I also enjoy playing the Axis side,

Though,

I don't embrace the Nazi insignia

(... rationale that the "swastika" is actually

a VERY old Indian symbol doesn't QUITE

make it alright... for me)

But, as you, take some delight

In marauding with them 88's and Panzers!

It is not an unusual thing to do.

My own wife wonders, often,

WHY ever do I like it.

I tell her:

"It is only a game,

and I KNOW the difference between this

and "real life."

She is not QUITE satisfied with that,

But,

Fairly well educated, and

Appreciates the Male need for SOME

Territorial dominance,

And surely doesn't mind when I chase away

Some illegal immigrant who steals my tools,

Or threatens our home.

Where I live, this is fairly common,

Immigrants stealing to survive.

I have NO patience with that, however,

Since you can be poor, and even,

Starving.

All you gotta do is ask, and I give

You some food.

A poor person is NOT excused from behaving

In a "considerate and honorable" way,

Nope, no, nix, forget it.

My tools?

Well,

With those I augment my inadequate salary,

So that is truly stealing my "livelihood,"

And I won't accede to demands

That I "give benefit of doubt"

Since these are poor folk.

Nonsense.

Finally,

I am playing Axis NOW, in testing,

And am having a fabulous amount of FUN

Doing it. :cool:

[dicedtomato]

You ask a good question, Jim. One that has costantly troubled me as a wargamer.

I think there's a fascination with evil, whether it's the Nazis or the Mafia. Maybe it's because so many of us wish that we could cast aside all the rules and morals that govern our lives.

I also think there's a wannabe syndrome here. Like tribesmen who believe that eating the hearts of their enemies makes them stronger, there are wargamers who seem to feel more powerful when they play the Germans side, or have photos of Tiger tanks on their walls.

The problem is some gamers don't understand the difference between studying history, and becoming enthusiastic about it. It's funny that you mention Wiesel, because I sometimes use what I call the Elie Wiesel test.

Wiesel's argument is that we must remember. So if he were to see us playing the Germans in a wargame, we could explain that we are merely attempting to remember history. But how do we explain those who insist that games have Nazi graphics, or those who always insist on playing the German side in any wargame?

We should not be ashamed of being wargamers. But we do need to remember the history behind our games.

DT

[Rolend]

DD ummm you wouldn't be testing the new patch would you??? Just a small hint, how is it looking?

As for the OP, yea some times after I finish kicking the Allies rear when I play the Axies I get a pang about what it would have really meant had the Germans won the war in that manner. Then I remind myself that it is just a game, like playing checkers, I am not really making war and killing millions of people in the process and as long as I keep it that way, then I think no harm no foul. If I have to have a habit, and yes gaming of all kinds is a habit for me, it is better then say drug addiciton

[jon_j_rambo]

I'm not fascinated with evil. I'm fascinated with good. It is weird to have a bunch of Bunta books in your house. I know trash in the trashcan stinks, I don't need to sniff it to remember.

[rleete]

I once was completely taken with the German side, before I had a real grasp of what war really entails, and especially this one.

Sometimes, when I win as the Axis, I do feel slightly guilty about it. That I do, is a sign that I haven't lost my humanity. I hope.

[jon_j_rambo]

It's a game like checkers to me. Unless of course, I have Patton in the action.

[Jim Mason]

What are "Bunta" books? I googled it and got some Japanese film director, yakuza movies, other seemingly meaningless stuff.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Jim Mason:

My wife made me watch Oprah last night

Well see, here's your real problem...

[dicedtomato]

You shouldn't feel guilty about winning as Germany, Jim. I'm Jewish, and I've played Germany many times, and enjoyed winning.

The thing to remember is that you're playing Germany, but not ROLE-PLAYING Germany. Guys with photos of German generals on their wall don't understand that.

DT

[Desert Dave]

DD ummm you wouldn't be testing the new patch would you??? Just a small hint, how is it looking?

Back in the halcyon day, Rolend,

I usta lean against the trunk

Of one a' them sashaying palm trees

There in Pacific Pallisades,

And, sort-of, you know,

Admire!

All them bikini-clad lovelies,

Butter-rum from the Seaside sun,

As they roller SKATED

(... no "blades" in them days!)

Up and down and all around

And,

Well,

It's looking GOOD!

As that. :cool:

[Rolend]

DD LOL that is a good picture you painted and Memorial Day is fast approaching so that picture comes into focus very nicely. If the patch is half as good as that picture I will be very happy

[aesopo]

Yet we choose to ignore the millions that Stalin put to death because he was on the side of the winning team? Or the UN to be very slowwwww to react to the genocide in Rwanda and other parts of Africa? We have not learnt our lessons yet.

[jon_j_rambo]

Who ignored the Commies? Certainly not me or Reagan.

[aesopo]

Roosevelt sold half of Europe to the commies - Patton was right that we should busted Stalin's nuts back then! Imagine the trillion of dollars we would have saved in the arms race!

[Major Spinello]

The fascination of evil ... I think it is only honest to admit that this indeed plays some part, though it should not be overrated. If a game sucks, even the fascination of evil will not save it. In WW2 games in the Europe theater, I´m actually more fascinated with the very different strategic challenges and options the two sides have to face. I therefore play both sides almost equally often.

[jon_j_rambo]

Anybody who is fascinated with evil has issues. I knew this was a Bunta website 4 years ago at first glance. Been a mission of mine to weed them out.

[Blashy]

JJvR, Patton might have been a nutcase in terms of anything outside fighting, but he was dead right about keep going and taking out the dictatorship of Stalin`s opressive regime.

The politicians did not mind letting those people suffer as the land pretty much had nothing to offer and they could make good use of of having an enemy for their propaganda.

So yes I agree, the Allies should have rolled all over Stalin and free`d all those oppressed countries and people.

[jon_j_rambo]

@TBlashy --- Wow, we have some commonground.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Blashy:

JJvR, Patton might have been a nutcase in terms of anything outside fighting, but he was dead right about keep going and taking out the dictatorship of Stalin`s opressive regime.

The politicians did not mind letting those people suffer as the land pretty much had nothing to offer and they could make good use of of having an enemy for their propaganda.

So yes I agree, the Allies should have rolled all over Stalin and free`d all those oppressed countries and people.

With that logic you also are saying lets take out Iran and North Korea?

[jon_j_rambo]

Sure.

[dicedtomato]

Another wargamer wet dream.

Let's see, it's June 1945. Britain is bankrupt, France is devastated, Western Europe is freezing and starving, and the U.S. is still fighting Japan. We haven't tested the atom bomb, but we have told our troops for four years that the Russians are our friends.

So what do we do? We let King Patton the Looney attack two million Soviets. They're armed to the teeth, but no worries. As our new German friends assure us, the Soviets will collapse like a house of cards. Just like they predicted in 1941.

DT

[Jim Mason]

It would have been a catastrophic mistake.