Sea Lion, Early Victory, & Piling On

[CPT Pete]

With a successful Sea Lion campaign does the game have to end with an Early Axis Victory. Historically what would have happened if England was successfully invaded and conquered? Would Russia and the USA not have gone to war? Would Germany not have attacked Russia? I would like to be able to continue in a What If scenario. If I achieved a quick victory over England before turning to take Russia, how quickly would I be able to defeat Russia. I would like to see in SC2 the ability to turn off Early Victory and play to Total World Domination. Total World Domination is fun.

[Retributar]

CPT Pete ...if Sealowe or Sealion were successful...im quite sure that this would not be the end of the game.

What exactly determines the end of the game besides total annihilation...i don't know.

One of the game testers or a designer will need to answer this question for you.

[Hubert Cater]

While it has yet to be finalized, the current plan is to have a script that controls/sets 'Victory Conditions' so there should be some flexibility available to you in this department

[JerseyJohn]

This is an interesting issue and a tricky question from the historical view.

If the United States is already in the European Theater I'm sure it wouldn't pull out of the war unless Germany pulled out of the British Isles.

Unfortunately, in AI SC games, the U. S. makes no effort to cross the Atlantic at all if Russia is fighting and the Axis occupies Western Europe. I'd hope that will be changed in SC2; have AI make a choice, even if random, where the U. S. collects units and attemps a landing somewhere in Western Europe -- what I mean, is set it so the AI doesn't always make the effort at the same place; sometimes it would be the British Isles and other times it would be France. That would force the Axis to garrison it's Western European holdings while fighting on the Eastern Front.

In games where the UK falls before either the U. S. or USSR enters, I'd like to see the game continue. Germany should have an incentive to turn east in a hurry, perhaps have Russia go into a very eccelerated state of war preparedness or, if the USSR is neutral perhaps triple the amount of initial MPPs it will recieve after the UK falls.

There should be a similar boost in US production ability if it suddenly finds itself the sole barrier in the Atlantic.

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn, most excellent ideas. You have my vote.

Another problem is that the U.S. AI does not know how to deal with a German naval force in the Atlantic. It does not build new ships or bombers to clear a path for its transports and it always takes the direct and predictable route to England, often sailing directly into a German or Italian blockade.

[ August 26, 2004, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

And you, likewise, have my vote!

Yes, the AI is very inept in all those ways. I can understand why, you understand it even better than the rest of us as you're a conputer professional, the size limitations Hubert was working under with SC.

But hopefully those days are well behind us now and, with unlimited resources behind him and with the newer machines and their comparatively infinite memory, Mr. Cater will produce a game where the AI is absoluletly brilliant and mind boggling and -- -- oh, feeling much better now, I mean, a game with much better AI play would be a real treat, Hubert.

[Edwin P.]

I agree that his company's size limitations affected the AI. Given that he chose, rightfully so, to concentrate on perfecting the AI for the most important theater of war - The War in Continental Europe. For as he said, its better for the AI to do a few things well than several things poorly.

And I most whole heartedly agree that a game with an improved, less predictable and devious AI would be a "real treat".

[Liam]

I found a Rule in SC, when UK surrenders at a certian time game sometimes just surrenders. USSR would've never surrendered and is more than formidable right at the moment UK is conquored. It's also similar to the USA when you take D.C. game is over for them. Something that wouldn't happen historically, we'd just move Capitol to another Major Inland City. Now UK and USSR surrendering would in my opinion be it. Perhaps an economic victory would be fun also. Force people to defend Oil and Mineral Rich Regions which is historical. Hitler went after Southern Russia for it's vast Natural Resources.

Canada similarly would never surrender as many other Minors would've never done so if you lose your Capitol alone. A fight to the death policy in a few nations would be interesting. Or more Randomized Surrending by Minors and Majors. Not following the route that SC did every single game for moving Capitols, Units, etc.. That way making new strategies constantly fluctuating?

All these neat ideas for a great and improved game each session. Well, hey! SC2 AI is going to be the best part, it'll be the human side. I say focus 95% on that part and make an AI add-on pack later

[JerseyJohn]

Liam,

I not only agree completely on what you said, I'd take it a step further and add that it would have been impossible for the Axis to even have made a major landing on North America. Actually, this was the first topic I started a thread on back in Oct of 02. One on the true size of the Atlantic and the other on the logistical impossibility of the Axis supporting a transatlantic invasion of North America.

Here's what it really looks like!

There was only one intercontinental route for them and that was through sympathetic countries turned Axis Allies in South America. There were several, primarily Argentina and Brazil, that might well have been interested in lining up with Germany.

In the early days of Barbarossa Hitler began implementing the next stage of his larger vision, which was to reduce his army and air force in order to expand his Ocean going fleet. The objective was to either force a sympathetic peace treaty on the U.K. with the USSR defeated and pushed beyond the Urals, and then to gain control of the Atlantic. He had no plans whatever to cross the Atlantic directly onto American soil. Of course, Hitler being what he was, would have had them in the back of his mind somewhere, but no doubt realized he needed a strong base for such an undertaking that was a lot closer than three thousand miles of ocean!

The South America idea is, of course, totally out of the scope of SC.

[Liam]

John:

Likewise for the USA to land upon European Soil without a go between or two would be very very tedious. From all the information I hear now about Overlord that almost was a failure if not for pure luck, good intel, the Germans had Panzers halted up in Calais and the Allied forces took heavy losses on crossing a relatively small Channel not an entire Ocean!

Axis popping up in Texas is very unlikely without a Strong more advanced Kriegsmarine with bases and sypathizers in S.America and Carribean? I really honestly feel if USA felt that their Southern Neighbors would betray them they'd of seized the Islands in the Carribean and secured the Panama Canal and reinforced it with large Numbers. Likely also hit South American Coastlines since their military was primitive and the biggest Threat then would be from Hawaii/Midway/Aluets with japan. That way the Germans would have a long long time before they could consider Mainland USA.

Confirm your feelings here? I think that even D-Day should be much more difficult and have a weather effect as SC2 now has Weather effects for Russia. Plus many other regions should have that rough seas, hard places to land. This should be researched IMO

Couple more things to add:

I never realized so few Americans were in the initial Assualt on Normandy, only what 150 thousand ? That is relatively a small number and why? Because amphibious Craft are expensive and I doubt few nations could've put a Million men in Craft on 1 Invasion fleet in WW2. SC really doesn't reflect reality, when Romania or Italy can do this. SC2 should.. A beachhead had to be established and a makeshift port to land the supplies and Full Army. SC2 should replicate this accurately in that one must first find an opening get a makeshift Hex to get the rest of the supplies in... Instead of SC now where Amphibious and Transports are used as a Gamey tactic and not realistic at all! If air stay as powerful let it plows its way through Garrisoned Coastal units

As far as everything else is concerned, never realized Hitler had a plan to Go after the USA. I knew about his obsession for the Kriegsmarine and if he was wise 1946 would've been much wiser. I don't see the sense in launching your armies to they overwhelming and noone else was matching his buildup in the late 30s...Aside from my maybe Stalin? Even by then he may have been not far from an A-Bomb but then again maybe history would've been re-written with that ? and there would've never been an actual WW2 like it was<even though a Liebenstrom Bomb may have been is word for that aye?> Ghastly Nazis!

[ August 26, 2004, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Kuniworth]

Jersey, what are the red dots? At a first quick glance I thought it was sunk submarines, but then I realised that it was'nt....

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

I was about to finish what started out as a nice peacful days' work when I popped in and saw your post! Good points and no quick answers so I'll need to take it in detail.

Originally posted by Liam:

John:

Likewise for the USA to land upon European Soil without a go between or two would be very very tedious.

You're mixing apples and oranges. What about Operation Torch in 1942? At almost that same time the United States sent an amphibious force directly from the West Coast to land on Guadalcanal, which was even further away than North Africa!

The United States had huge naval resources at it's command from the very start. Pearl Harbor was a blow to the battle fleet (though not as serious a blow as the government made it out to be) but the logistical arm, transports, supply ships, etc., was still very extensive and being increased drastically. Neither Germany nor Japan had anything to match it. Italy, before the constant "Death Runs" to Libya, also had a large transport capacity but not even they could approach what the United States was capable of.

From America's view, the actual landing would not have been the big problem. The main difficulty would have been keeping it supplied and reinforced and establishing a supply base. After the Normandy artificial harbors were destroyed by a hurricane, supplies were simply offloaded to the beach. As the Germans left the major ports in ruins this continued right up to the crossing of the Rhine, the Redball Express stretching from the Normandy beach all across France!

Regarding an amphibious operation, Under normal circumstances it equates to a 1:6 ratio of space used for troops and their supplies!

From all the information I hear now about Overlord that almost was a failure if not for pure luck, good intel, the Germans had Panzers halted up in Calais and the Allied forces took heavy losses on crossing a relatively small Channel not an entire Ocean!

The Allies invasion of France was an abnormal situation as even the weak points were strongpoints! Normandy was much better defended than any other amphibious landing of the war. The landing at Salerno, Italy in 1943 was similar in that it too almost failed. In that instance the Germans actually did mount an armored counter attack and had it not been for well directed naval gunfire and air strikes the beachead would have been overwhelmed.

Another huge factor at Normandy was the uncontested control of the air the Allies enjoyed (only two ME109s made an appearance, they strafed a beach and quickly vanished). Naturally a trans-atlantic invasion would have none of those things going for it.

The flip side is this, look at all the men and resources the Germans put into the Atlantic Wall! Consider how much more effective would Germany's war effort have been if the army groups in France, the Low Countries and Norway would have been free to deploy against the USSR.

The weakness Edwin and myself are talking about in SC terms is, without a need to defend France against the AI (UK knocked out of the war but U. S. ineffectually building units that never leave the U.S.A area) the human player is perfectly free to send everything east! That is incredibly unrealistic and actually helps ruin AI games.

Axis popping up in Texas is very unlikely without a Strong more advanced Kriegsmarine with bases and sypathizers in S.America and Carribean? I really honestly feel if USA felt that their Southern Neighbors would betray them they'd of seized the Islands in the Carribean and secured the Panama Canal and reinforced it with large Numbers. Likely also hit South American Coastlines since their military was primitive and the biggest Threat then would be from Hawaii/Midway/Aluets with japan. That way the Germans would have a long long time before they could consider Mainland USA.

Fine, but what we're talking about is the manpower and diversion of resources needed to do so. The only reason Brazil declared war on the Axis was United States pressure to make sure they didn't join the Axis!

When distances and terrain are factored in, United States campaigns in places like Brazil and Argentina would not have been as simple as you make them out to be.

Regarding the German Navy, yes, the first point I made was that Hitler planned to increase it drastically. This was to be done, in large part, by completing partially finished ships in French ports and, if the UK had been defeated, doing the same with captured vessels and partially completed ones.

Confirm your feelings here? I think that even D-Day should be much more difficult and have a weather effect as SC2 now has Weather effects for Russia. Plus many other regions should have that rough seas, hard places to land. This should be researched IMO

Using Hubert's SC system there's no way to truly represent the Normandy type invasion. When you've got three, four or five armies and HQs sitting off the coast about to land you've automatically thrown all chance of a true representation out the window. So that has little to do with what I'm talking about, especially as I've been saying exactly this for almost two years now!

Couple more things to add:

I never realized so few Americans were in the initial Assualt on Normandy, only what 150 thousand ? That is relatively a small number and why? Because amphibious Craft are expensive and I doubt few nations could've put a Million men in Craft on 1 Invasion fleet in WW2. SC really doesn't reflect reality, when Romania or Italy can do this. SC2 should.. A beachhead had to be established and a makeshift port to land the supplies and Full Army. SC2 should replicate this accurately in that one must first find an opening get a makeshift Hex to get the rest of the supplies in... Instead of SC now where Amphibious and Transports are used as a Gamey tactic and not realistic at all! If air stay as powerful let it plows its way through Garrisoned Coastal units.

Yes, see my other points, I've felt exactly this way for ages and so have many other people, especially Immer Etwas!

As far as everything else is concerned, never realized Hitler had a plan to Go after the USA. I knew about his obsession for the Kriegsmarine and if he was wise 1946 would've been much wiser. I don't see the sense in launching your armies to they overwhelming and noone else was matching his buildup in the late 30s...Aside from my maybe Stalin? Even by then he may have been not far from an A-Bomb but then again maybe history would've been re-written with that ? and there would've never been an actual WW2 like it was<even though a Liebenstrom Bomb may have been is word for that aye?> Ghastly Nazis!

Hitler's plans regarding the United States were very muddled. The reason he started the war in 1939 instead of 1946, as he actually would have preferred, wasn't a lack of wisdom, it was a fear of death. He had, and knew he had, Parkinson's disease. He was already fifty years old and didn't expect to live to be fifty-five. Added to that is his mistaken belief that in 1939 he'd be able to grab Poland in the Autumn and negotiate a peace treaty with the UK and France in October or November. So, in a sense, his attack on Poland was not the launching of the all out war he'd been envisioning.

Interesting stuff, as always, Liam.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

Jersey, what are the red dots? At a first quick glance I thought it was sunk submarines, but then I realised that it was'nt....

Excellent observation. This was the best map I was able to find that wasn't gigantic. It's from some sort of oceanographic study understaken in 1989 and the red dots are locations that were monitored.

Yes, they do pretty closely resemble sunken U-boat patterns!

[Lars]

Maybe a simple AI switch where the US would build a real navy instead of sailing to their doom would solve the problem. Or have them transferred in from the Pacific at some point (sort of like the Siberians for the Russians). By 44 the naval war was pretty much over in the Pacific.

And a fleet roaming up and down the coast of Europe would probably give the Axis player real fits.

[Retributar]

Quote:

JerseyJohn

I'd take it a step further and add that it would have been impossible for the Axis to even have made a major landing on North America.

Yes, very true...based on what they had in WW2...their fleet was not in anyway capable of that.

However if the Germans were victorious over Russia...and then knocked out Britain after-that...they would now be under little threat...and would have access to resources through-out the continent.

It would take years to build a fleet such as the U.S. had so as to be able to attempt a trans-atlantic crossing in force. Not only that...the Japanese could work in conjunction with them to take pressure off their efforts to invade North-America. They both could attack simultaneously.

The Germans would need to take over Cuba and or other islands in order to be able to stage their forces (Such as the U.S. did with England) for a land invasion as well as set up an air umbrella to protect their installations.

That's why this game is advertised as "Rewrite history with 6 full length campaigns ('39, '40, '41, '42' 43, '44) each lasting to the historical end of the war and beyond".

The Germans certainly had the technical know-how to attempt such an endeavor...but could'nt do it while fighting a 2 or 3 front war. Now with the European continent subjugated...the situation changes!.

Whether this is really realistic or not...i do not care...i just wish to explore this avenue to see what happens...it would be a nice change of pace for once!.

[JerseyJohn]

Retributar

Agree 100%.

Hitler had vague designs along those lines, some of them involving the use of Vichy French Caribean possissions. Vichy France figured in other ways regarding the eventual war in the Western Hemisphere involving the narrowest crossing points from NW Africa to Brazil, which, basically, was seen as a natural logistical link to the Reich.

There's no question that, if Germany had knocked out both Russia and Britain, it would have been capable of such things. The question instead is how long would have taken?

By the standards of the time it took roughly three years to build a battleship and two years for an aircraft carrier. Hitler was obsessed with size and power. He understood that aircraft carriers were important but wanted to build two classes of BBs that would have been larger than the Bismarck and Tirpitz.

The first was the Hindenburg class which was already in the early stages when war broke out but the resources were quickly diverted to build tanks. The H-Class would have been incrementally larger versions of the Bismarck Class having 16" main guns rather than 15". The next class would have been larger than the Japanese super giants Yamato and Mussashi. They would again have been designed along the same lines but with 20" main guns (to Yamato's 18.1) and displaced about 100,000 tons (to Yamato's 65,000).

In addition to those monsters, Germany's Blue Water Fleet would have been filled out with more conventional sized warships that were captured under construction in French shipyards; it was assumed they'd find others partially built in the U.k..

The German army and air force were to have greatly reduced priorities and size with manpower and resources being shifted to the Navy.

There are two questions here, the first goes back to our earlier discussion regarding time, and the second is manpower for the presumably huge armies that would have eventually been required for the actual conquest of the United States.

Regarding the first, I would say a good ballpark figure would be five years, after the conquest of UK and the USSR for the completion of Hitlers fantasy navy. Among other things, the Germans had no experience in training carrier aviators; the small aircraft carriers Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser, sister ships laid down in 1938, were never completed and the naval air arm never came into being due to Goerings opposition -- he wanted Germany's carrier pilots to be attached to the Luftwaffe!

There were other problems to deal with. Though superior in optics, range finding radar and several other specific areas, German capital ships were in many ways poorly designed. The rudders were under-protected and the very equipment they held an edge in, the electronics, were overly exposed to hostile shell fire.

So I figure it would have taken a year or two to work out the flaws, establish an effective aircraft carrier doctrine largely adapted from the British and French, and another three or so years to actually build the ships.

Naturally, while all of that was being done the United States, with comparable resources and a technological edge of it's own in many vital areas, would have been taking countermeasures of it's own.

Regarding the second prerequisite, the huge armies required couldn't be drawn directly from the German population. It would have incurred massive losses in the conquest of Europe and, in any case, only had half the numbers the United States had! The rank and file would have needed to be drawn from the conquered areas. This could hardly have been done with SS goons roaming the countryside killing and destroying at will.

The Reich needed to mature, to shake off it's inferior races practices and provide some sort of incentive for loyalty among the subjugated nations and allied states. This was something that had been very well understood in the Kaiser's regime and undoubtedly with the Death of Hitler, probably 1946 by natural causes, wiser heads would have prevailed.

Perhaps the new leadership would even be wise enough to realize at least a century of intelligent administration would have been required for the Third Reich, as it stood after conquering all of Europe, to become a legitmate and unified national entity.

Absorbing two additional continents, even if conquered in the first place, and effectively occupying them, would have been an impossibility.

[Liam]

John:

Your comments are accurate in forms. I do say one thing the Germans despite their backwards leadership were superb at design and quick! Look at the V-1 and V-2 Rocket programs. You're right that the USA fully mobilized had a Monster Army but they had their weaknesses too. Technically had Russia and Britian both fallen before the Might of the Reich, it would've isolated Democracy, soon then Japan would've encroached with Germany across Asia-Siberia-Africa-Pacific and eventually their eyes would've set to the industrial bread basket of the USA. They would've likely drawn up plans to either force the US to submit to a treaty or divide her. If they felt they could take her. I think that an invasion force could've hit them earlier than you feel. With Super Weapons being developed in Germany from the Jet-A-Bomb-Super Subs that could've choked USA and with Japanese destroying the Artery of Panama Canal the US would've been on lockdown. I doubt our Goverment would've stayed In One Piece, unlike the Fascist Goverments ours relied more heavily on Public Opinion and wouldn't take as much suffering IMO without a Great Reason..

It's hard to say if Pearl would've ever happened if Hitler's war had gone all his way after France as the Japanese were Allied to the Axis and the USA may have drawn up a treaty to the winning side. The White Majority afterall in America is primarily German, why fight a doomed War? If you saw it comming, in a Navy several times your own, an Airforce that would be unshackable<considering you had both Japanese and German Mixed collaborating> your own. Experienced, a Wermacht that had never been defeated we'd of shuddered and I doubt fought it on our own Soil. Not unless Hitler's administration remained as evil and was revealed fully to the public<if it ever was Joe Stalin's Regime wasn't revealed to us for ages and until it suited the Goverment nor was the Atrocities of the Nazis>

Regardless with any invasion force, victory in my opinion would be in the bag if the Air and Navy of the Axis forces destroyed the Americans. How much strategic Bombing could the US endure? The A-Bomb would've came a lot easier to the Germans and they were ahead in Aircraft/Land Technology than us early and would've excelled after Russia

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

Terrific points but at heart,

in 1940

Germany had roughly 80 million people,

Japan had 90 million

the United States had 145 million.

The Axis, Atlantic and Pacific would have been subjugating many times their own population. This would have presented a highly unstable situation for them.

Additionally, by the mid-forties, war losses would have begun to tell on both the Germans and the Japanese. With millions of dead and disabled men from the conquests, they'd have had an ever smaller manpower pool to draw upon for the actual creation of armies, navies and air forces.

The United States would have been comparatively fresh and with more people actually loyal to their cause than either Japan or Germany would have been able to muster.

Contrary to what you'd said regarding atomic bomb development, Germany and Japan were hopelessly behind the United States in that department. So far behind, in fact, that to this day it's strongly suspected that the head of their program, Dr Werner Heisenberg, along with others, were deliberately holding it back. The Japanese had no a-bomb program to speak of.

Long range bombers?

The United States already had a workable design for one that was larger, heavier and with a greater range than the B-29. It was never put into production, not even after the war, due to drastic and utterly foolish defense cutbacks by the Truman administration.

Germany had the Hortun brothers flying wing design. The United States had a similar flying wing that worked great with a prop engine. So that's pretty much a push. The thing is, with the war going well for them it's doubtful that Germany would have begun serious development of such an aircraft till comparatively late. Goering ignored it till Germany was absolutely desperate.

The Japanese had plans to knock out the Panama Canal. The thing is, other than the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japan wasn't overly impressive when it came to long distance and complex operations. I don't believe first that Japan would have sent that mission out without giving the whole thing away with broken code radio transmissions and second I don't believe it would have made it through undetected. The United States had sonar and, once they were on an alert basis, too many ships for the Japanese to be able to slip past.

Ultimately I think it would have been a question of which side was more successful at recruiting the larger South American nations over to their cause. In a desperate life and death struggle the United States might well have been able to offer better trade incentives and outright bribes. Which is another thing, German and Japanese diplomacy at that time was less than horrible!

Even if the Germans had built a huge fleet and achieved domination of the Atlantic it would have been American air power that would have dominated, not German! How could German bombers, not even able to engage till they'd gone across three thousand miles of ocean, possibly dominate the skies against high altitude fighters based in New England and Long Island, New York? Especially considering that the United States possessed very good, probably the world's best, radar.

I can't help but think the smartest Axis path, after achieveing all of that, would been to consolodate their conquests. It would have been the United States, not Germany and Japan, that would have needed to launch the offensives! It would have been vital for America to break up the Axis empires before they could become permanent.

Presumably the Nazi heirarchy would have self-destructed as it did in real life so that, by the time Hitler died around 1946, he'd have been replaced by a regime of Doenitz with Albert Speer marshalling the newly won resources.

Overall a very interesting situation and one that I'm glad never came about in real life.

[SeaMonkey]

Sorry Liam, I have to concur with JJ, I mean after all he is the "Forum Historian". So glad that he brought up the Atomic Bomb as I kept thinking about its significance while I read this thread. Germany was not on the right track with its development although I eventually believe they would have cracked the atom and deployed a working weapon. The problem was, they didn't have time, USA got it first and we all know they weren't afraid to use them. As JJ mentioned the delivery system was also available...game.... set ....match. If indeed Germany and Japan owned the Eastern hemisphere and developed weapon systems to bring hostilities to the West it would have been at earliest 1946....How many A-bombs could have been produced by then....and then the H-bomb looming a little later especially with a whole hemisphere of hostiles for motivation. Sorry, the subjugation of the USA in WW2, IMO is pure fantasy.....but nothing is impossible.

[Liam]

John:

Open your mind to what could be. SC and SC2 most certianly does in the fact that a player is given an extreme amount of flexability with their Army, Navy and Airforce. I am wrong in one point that the Axis had Huge disadvantages in all areas, but my Post was hypothetical, but improbable? No! Even the Admiral given control of a Victorious Goverment would he of been a little bit more aggressive in his foreign Policy? Likely he would have, despite the falling of the Nazi Regime, if that indeed happened for 40-50 years, there were plenty of Youthful Nazis recruited throughout the 30s to carry on the flame for half a Century or More. Look at N.Korea or China, and none of them would've had the entire resources of the British Empire-French-Russian Bear-and everywhere that wasn't American Soil on their side.

Brazil was a Sympathetic Fascist Regime in the 40s no, Italy would've easily convinced them for use of their ports, and airfields<Brazil would've been Given an Enlarged Brazilian Empire always on their Agenda in S.America>. How long would it have taken for the Nazis to develop their A-Bomb Projects if they suspected we were in full bloom. They'd of had access to many more resources, they may have not had an A-Bomb first but I bet they'd of had an ICBM first as we stole their Missile Technology at the end of WW2 for that very purpose. Who is to say that bombs landing on US soil would've came from Bombers? Wishful thinking, as they'd of likely been as accurate as SCUDs, but there were those in the Nazi Heirarchy that would've sent the next best thing to a Nuke, the Dirt that goes along with it, and every bit as deadly in large enough quantity! So would it have been worthwhile for the US to Nuke the German side? Would B-29s of hit Germany in 1945-46-47? Not sure, and how reliant on Trade with foreign Nations was USA in WW2?<imagine not 1 US trading Vessel ever embarking again anywhere, wouldn't be impossible vs a massive Japanese and German Blockade> Imagine that the South American Continent was subjegated by Puppet Regimes, there would be only the US and Canada, alone? During WW2 the Japanese took out all of Asia with little or no losses to themselves, they used fear tactics to Rule<as in Russia you don't need much to win with these tactics, the people just are afraid to be tortured to death let alone uprise.. few had the bravery, save the Yugoslavs and Russians in WW2 to fight on>, they may have been short Manpower but the Germans didn't need it to win. Obviously they beat the Superior Manpower of the Russians, and their Armor and other land weapons would been far more advanced than anything we could offer, what Tigers in Numbers vs Shermans? How many FW-190s flying over a Floridian Beachhead vs how many P-51Ds?

Plus you take for granted that German Manpower would've been on the decline. If Russia fell, it wouldn't have been with a fight, it just would've toppled in the first Lightning Smash Knockout in 1941. Not some extended 1943 brainbashing war like happened historically. The Russians just wouldn't have had the cities, industry, organization, or Goverment to continue to fight is what most Conclude if Moscow, Leningrade and Stalingrad all fell like Dominos. At that point German Losses were not high. They were relatively low. With Spain and Turkey possibly joing in there would've been probably as many men dead refreshed into a New Waffen SS, and how attractive would that have been? Be a part of the Largest most Power Army that the World has ever Known, Auxiliaries for the Empire, while the hardened Top of the Line Wermacht moved for a Main Thrust up through Panama<tricky Terrain> bribing Mexico<who'd been occuppied by the USA> and so forth...

Biggest obstacle for the Germans is the US Navy, it's airforce couldn't hit any more long range than the Germans once they had some time to create a few modified Fighters<with all the captured Tech from Britian not much they wouldn't be without>

US Navy would've been the only thing between total Nazi World Domination, but a Major Nazi Army through the Canal in 1944 would've been stopped by what? We didn't even start Mobilization until after Pearl so we were grossly unprepared for Real War

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

I don't understand the premise we're working under. Of course if it's entirely an imaginative scenario with no bounds then anything is possible.

That wasn't I was discussing, though. I was discussing a situation based on the world that actually existed.

Base population the United States is roughly equal to Germany and Japan combined. If Germany and Japan each conquer large chunks of Asia and all of Europe, respectively, that means they've got to occupy it!

Hitler, in 1941, was figuring on close to 60 divisions to occupy the European USSR -- about half of them being either motorized or panzer forces. In other words he wasn't thinking in terms of having a pacified, subdued population. Sixty divisions would have been approximately 750,000 troops not available for combat.

Additionally the other conquered countries would also have needed to be occupied. Norway alone had a garrison of 300,000! There would also have been France, Britain and Poland.

We're talking about over two million troops tied up in occupation and counter insurrection duty.

I don't for a minute believe Japan was going to attain naval dominance over the Pacific and Germany was going to dominate the Atlantic. By 1945, historically, the United States Navy was larger in all categories than all the other navies on earth combined! The same is true of the US (Army) Air Force! American production figures for America dwarfed everyone else's, including the USSR. Germany and Japan used extremely backwards methods based upon masses of forced and slave labor. Why? That's medeival! The moved backwards and showed no sign of getting out of that mentality.

The situation you painted above is one in which Germany and Japan are given every break and the U. S. just shrivels up and wilts and dies. Why?

South America? Those countries could have gone either way even with the Axis victorious in Europe. There's no reason to assume Argentina and Brazil, even with German backing, could have conquered any of their neighbors and, subject to U. S. counter measures, it's likely that those regimes would have quickly lost popular support and been toppled.

If they did they join the Axis it had to be done skillfully and they knew that, which is why they provided little or no support, moral or otherwise during the actual war. Case in point, 1939, none of those nations invited Germany to send it's battered warship Graf Spee to come and be repaired in any of their ports. The war was in it's opening stages, the U. S. was far from entering and they were still apprehensive, even then, of becoming involved!

U-boats along the east and west coast? No, by the middle of the war U-boats were clearly the underdog against land based aircraft. It wouldn't have happened. After WWII nobody build a torpedo sub navy. Why? Because sonar had rendered subs, as used during the Second World War, obsolete.

ICBMs? No. It tood over a decade to develop them. They would not have reached that stage of technology even during an extended version of World War Two. And nobody had any technology for placing them on subs or ships. Those are all Cold War technologies clearly removed from anything relating to World War Two.

I'm not trying to kill these ideas, only to rein them into some sort of reason.

The German and Japanese goals were to conquer spefic areas and then hold them. There were very good reasons for that. The maps that were made during the war showing a swatztika east of the Mississippi and a rising sun west of the Mississippi were intended to shake the American people out of complacency and they succeeded, but they had little real basis in reality.

The war was fought to prevent Germany from conquering Europe and to prevent Japan from conquering and consolodating China and the various Pacific and Indian Ocean territories it was reaching for.

Both countries made a run at those things and overran vast areas. But they never actually had them functioning properly. Reorganizing the conquered industries and resource production would have taken many years, exactly the way it took many years for Europe and Asia to be rebuilt even with massive United States aid after the war ended, between 1946 -1960.

Among the huge advantages the United States would have been working with was the fact that it was expanding an undamaged industrial base with willing and eager workers. Not trying to whip in shape subjugated populations working in factories that had to be rebuilt. Empires of hostile slaves vs free men. I hate to sound corny about this, but both the Japanese and Germans, even if militarily victorious, were doomed to topple from within.

I don't follow the point about Germany conquering Russia in a whirlwind campaign. Historically Hitler blew it. It might have happended that way if Germany had taken advantage of the opportunities Stalin had stupidly provided for them. On the other hand, it might not have. I believe the Germans could have done much better in the initial invasion of the USSR, but I'm not convinced that it would simply have toppled.

By the time Germany stopped in front of Moscow, prior to great Siberian Reserve counter offense, German casualties were already higher than they'd been in the enitre French Campaign, both stages of it!

Even if Leningrad and Moscow and Kiev had been captured before the onset of winter, with the German Army relatively intact, the SS flying squads were already doing their idiotic butchery behind the lines and Russian villagers were already being left with no food at all to get through the winter with. In other words, Germany was already doing it's best at every turn to create a population that would hate and work against them at every turn.

Of course, given a scenario editor that would allow all of those things to be done differently then none of that is relavent. What we're talking about then is creating a WWII type scenario that isn't bound by the historical situation. Which is fine with me.

But, essentially, we're talking about two different views of the same events and variations on them.

Incidentally, the main reason the United States was so far ahead of Germany in Atomic Bomb research wasn't only that it poured seemingly unlimited resources into it. It was also due to the fact that, in addition to it's own scientists, America had all the great scientists who had fled Europe and would otherwise have been at the dispossal of the Reich. Szillard, Planck, Bohr, Fermi ... and many, many others, not including the Jewish scientists, many of whom, such as Albert Einstein, not even being directly involved in the war effort!

[Liam]

Remeber now, many didn't believe that Germany got as far as it could up till the Fall of France John. Even his own Generals, who were ready to turn against the Fuhrer when everything went wrong. Though few realized how much power he had over the Country. It was sad that Germany was run by a bunch of hoodlums, and though one might like to rationalize that is was a Minority just the S.S. the Rest complimented the S.S. and other organizations well to do as they pleased! Meaning the Masses followed their Fuhrer well enough and till the very end and even further than Japan had gone if you consider the relative amount of Territory left in the end and deaths of civilians and Military alike.

Germany was systematically wiping out the Russians as they went. Think of the percentage of Poles and other Ethnic groups that were being stamped out of existence. How long before only the Loyal Ones remained? Converting the Industry well, more like the Russians, just steal the Industry and take it back to the homeland and anything else of value if there were anythings of value. The only thing that mattered were the natural resources. Again, converting these things into Battleships, Airforces, Armies, etc.. would take time, how long I'm not sure. You're right about that 100%, but in this game we'll never have that window of opportunity unless we say what if.. Already the builds in SC are completely and Holy unrealistic, the amount of Fighters and Tanks that Germany can mass produce would've been imaginary. The technology that they can achieve is laughable... Their weapons do things would could never concieve of in history until the 1960s or later... So naturally I am thinking somewhat on a bologne premise.

Germany Could have coaxed The South Americans in my opinion though and whether or not the Nuclear Question mattered is interesting. Germans would've gotten there eventually one way or the other. Look the Russians did and were far behind, it was just that the Germans were overextended in War, despite their lack of Scientific Genius of that of the USA. The Numbers of troops required to Cleanse the Russians and Slavs and then force the other Races into some sort Satelite States would be hard pressed for the Wermacht I never realized how many were stationed in Norway, or in the Balkans till you pointed it out... Many many troops, and one wouldn't know about Russia, as they never completed the Conquest there. Germans had to keep home Security but with all the Resources of Europe and Asia and finally able to trade again, as the US Navy would be home defense force only I think they would've come a lot further a lot faster than you think. I would love to read some material on this possiblity though.. How it would be accomplished. Any invasion before a real Navy was established would be suicide. Carriers, Longe Range Fighters and Bombers...Other powerful weapons the US possessed<the UK possessed> but the Germans never did...

Well, then including SC2 USA on the map would be useless then wouldn't it? I would be much happier to just have a larger Europe as if there is no invasion possible then the representation on the Map is a waste of resources for the game. It's like V-4 Rockets that have the explosive capability of Cruise<tipped with Uranium> Missiles in SC? Or Jet5 Fighters that're off aircraft Carriers resembling F-15s? NO SC2 I think will have much of the same Ahistorical Weapons so USA invasions will be happening whether we would like it or not

How about this though, the Germans have to meet an Industrial and Naval Quota in order for a Final Victory to be completed. That way they assume that they were on their way to the USA??? That would make an added challenge for us

Finally I'd like to say you underestimate the Imperial Navy of Japan and it's Airforce, initially it ate us... It was pure Luck IMO at Midway, Pure and simple... if not for that piece of Code and a few Divebombers in the right location the whole thing could've gone the other way...

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

What I'm saying is that every civilazation has a limit to what it can assimulate and control.

The Roman Empire stopped growing because it reached that limit, not because the Parthians wiped out the Crassius expedition or the Germans did a similar deed to four of the legions of Augustus Caesar a generation latter. The fact is during the Third Century A. D. the Emperor Trajan conquered the entire Middle East, sailed on the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf and the Caspian Sea, and was assassinated by his successor, Hadrian, who promptly withdrew from the entire are that Trajan had conquored! Why? Because Rome didn't have the capacity to administer the lands of it's traditional enemy, Persia (Parthia).

The same would have been true of the Japanese and Germans. They'd have conquered more than they were able to absorb and would have needed time to consolodate before moving further.

"Finally I'd like to say you underestimate the Imperial Navy of Japan and it's Airforce, initially it ate us... It was pure Luck IMO at Midway, Pure and simple... if not for that piece of Code and a few Divebombers in the right location the whole thing could've gone the other way... "

No, I'm not underestimating them really. Japan's early victories were pretty hollow. The caught a fleet sleeping on a Sunday morning and ran rampant through mainly empty space for six months. As soon as they had any kind of real opposition they collapsed. They lacked radar and sonar and their commanders were a bunch of arrogant blockheads who actually lost battles rather than give realistic reports about their actual achievements.

They weren't going anywhere, when push came to shove Midway was not an accident, the Japanese, with overwhelming forces at their dispossal, scattered their units all over the map in a foolish attempt to confuse the situation, instead they only watered themselves down everywhere and incurred a disaster.

Aside from Midway, they also produced such masterpieces as the Marianna's Turkey Shoot and the fiasco at Letye Gulf. They left dozens of island garrisons to go without supplies and were even more successful than the Germans at causing themselves to be universally hated.

As for Germany in South American, in the final analysis Brazil in WWII was mainly jungle, they hadn't even built Brazillia yet (and at ruinous consequence) and Argentina, though large, would not have counted for much going against the United States. Ultimately the U. S. would have gained control of South America.

The only course for a Germany that was victorious in Europe and a Japan that was victorious in Asia would have been to consolodate. And I seriously doubt Japan would have been victorious in Asia at all; it was a lightweight compared to the United States and it's leaders knew it. Their whole plan was based upon a false premise, that they'd inflict more damage upon the U. S. than it was willing to tolerate. They were fully aware that, if the U. S. fully mobilized and pursued the war they were doomed. They were sure that wouldn't happen, it did, and they were beaten. End of story. After mid 1942 they did nothing but lose; what is so impressive about that?

The German A-bomb? We're talking about 1950. A deadend. Germany, even if victorious, could not have mustered the equivilent of the U. S. Manhattan Project, which initially investigated , simultaneously, five methods of achieving and nuclear device and was able to ignore three dead ends.

Additionally, Germany did not have a delivery system and the United States did. There was no German equivalent of the B-29. There wasn't even a German equivilent of the B-17, Lancaster, B-24, or B-25 and none of them were capable of carrying and arming an A-bomb. There's no reason to assume that that Hortun Flying Wing (like it's Northrup counterpart) would have been able to deliver a nuclear device without much greater development than what was put into it. And, in any case, nothing along those lines was even put into prototype during the war!

No, even if they'd further developed their rockets the technology did not exist till much later to use them as a delivery system for nuclear weapons.

All in all, I don't understand how I'm supposed to change anything I've been saying to this point. I've been saying pretty much the same things over and over and will stop with this post.

Yes, I'd like to see such things be possible in a game. No, I don't think there was any chance of it happening historically.

That's the end for me on this subject.

[Liam]

John: Comparing the times of the Romans with the Axis doesn't quite fit, modern times allowed for assimilation in ways that history would never allow. The Roman Empire couldn't protect it's existing borders at the time you speak of, the German Empire in the early part of the 20th century already stretched to Africa or the Pacific. Look at the land occuppied by the Brits and they were often loathed by those that had conquored them or attempted to Rule over them. Fact is they became so powerful from what they owned, administration wasn't a problem until Germany declared 2 Major wars and it drained them too much to hold their former Lands...Modern times have things like Faster ships<steam ships, diesel Monsters> that could carry large amounts of men fast. Aircraft, modern infrastructure...Plus the best way to assimilate a conquored race, just genocide them. If Barbarossa had accomplished 30 Million Russians Death what Aprox. percentage more did he need? Likely in his lifetime there we be no people to hold sway over...I don't think people see it that way and the Nazis were only getting more efficient, not the other way around, there were plenty of those goons that would've lived till 80-90 years old...

I don't understand the logistics of getting an A-Bomb to one place from another, nor the design, but you underestimate the Germans. I think honestly people can do this whether, as Making a Major Bomber only requires a Designer, Resources and time. Something the Germans never bothered with on the scale that we had, but if they had, they would have gotten what they wanted. It seems their A-Bomb project was stalled too by various problems and difficulties, but 1950 seems a bit harsh but we were a Scientific Powerhouse in that area. All the best Scientists and the Money to research it. If world trade re-opened, who would be the wealthiest, most resource rich nation, conversion of that would be rather quick into Gold something we'd fall behind on.

You again underestimate the Japanese, history makes them out to be ruthless unbeatable fight to the death suicidal civilization. They had better Fighters in quantity to begin with, the Zero it took us some time to just just be competitive in the most important department of Aerial domination of the Pacific. We'd lost a ton until Coral Sea and then Midway, and Midway was an Intel fluke we didn't know where they'd hit if not for a bit of luck John They were prepared for war and we weren't, and having Russia and the UK out by then would ensured Japan parts of the Far East for free and India perhaps all the way to their Allies in Germany as planned. It took us till 1945 to get the Japanese shores and we figured the loss of a Million lives to take their Homeland. The Japanese were actually a bit hesitant to launch Pearl, no reason to say if the rest of the Europeans were beaten they wouldn't have sat back consolidated and served their German Allies well... Despite their lack of technology they seemed to adapt well, with their German Allies sharing more and more with them as a mutual game game possible who knows what they of become, they had Zero opposition in Asia aside from China or Russia. China alone fell like a tone of bricks and without outside intervention the "worthwhile" land of China was all Japanese anyways... I don't see your argument there at all They took out the British, Dutch, French etc.. colonies 1 by 1 and our Pacific Strongholds conqoured an Empire rather quickly, just foolish having the bigger guns and more firepower and never unleashing it in the right places as you said.

Hard to believe the USA would invade S.America.. They were a Democracy and it would further erode their reputation to the World, perhaps if they wanted a Dictatorship themselves. Helping South America Defend itself, would be more accurate but you're pointing at a Nation that required until 1944 to get the ball rolling as far as Invasions were concerned. They didn't have much more resources of War early more than their Enemies. South America is harsher terrain than the Pacific in places.. Only their Navy would give them free range there and the Germans by then could be in competition even you admit.

as in Many wargames, USA is not the doesn't even have a map presence as it's not required to win any WW2 era games. The few that do have it, it's just UK, USSR and USA... Taking any combination of 2 gives you the Victory, even those who create wargames of the Era all conclude Victory for the Nazis was in Russia and the UK. the USA would even they survived alone, be 'alone' for a long long time. The World would be conquored recently by Nazis and The Raw Material wealth alone would've made them the Premier Power in the World. The Third Reich would've caught up to us, look at SC, simplified, no matter how much it costs having so many resources in the end if your enemy can't beat you militarily you win. You will outtech, out produce and out everything him. Despite the logistics that I may not know, you're wrong to think the Germans wouldn't be a fairly immediate threat

Closed topic or not I like the debate and I like to hear your historical info, it's fun As I never thought of this possability. Plus your level head when it comes to such possibilities, now maybe the SC2 Design crew should read through what you wrote as they all seem to agree with me in their design flaws Now would that make us both extremely happy John ROFL As we want a Historical Wargame not a Make Believe One

USA could not be invaded before the late 40s, 100% impossible, Agreed and SC is completely gamey in that will SC2 be? World War 3 would've been a German and American Affair likely.

[ August 29, 2004, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Retributar]

JJ and Liam both of you have good argument's...but, until further information is revealed i tend to side more-so with Liam ...as i also think that the Germans and Japanese have been underestimated.

The Japanese for example had their Army and Navy at Heavy-Odd's with each other over almost everything. That's why you see them splitting up forces for Midway and i think the Coral-Sea...that's why they look like they can't seem to get it together.

As far as Midway goes... "Luck" was not involved...despite what the movie Midway show's... ULTRA had already determined where the Japanese were going to strike!. So it was then a simple matter for the U.S. Navy to put their forces in the most advantageous position to defeat the Japanese invasion force. Reconnaissance patrols were sent out in anycase to veryify the ULTRA information.

I agree with you JJ that the Germans had severe limitations...but, i also agree with Liam that the potential for the Germans to make good on their 'Behind-Position' was/could have been very much possible given that Europe was finally under their control.

Invading North America would in my opinion 'Not Be Impossible'... although as previously discussed i would tend to agree with JJ that 5 years would be a reasonable bench-mark for invasion capablility to be realized.

Don't forget...they would now have all the conquered countries ship-yards available to them now to create this vast Naval arsenal to accomplish an invasion effort against North America. The Russians had a great capability in this area for example!.

I also like Liams suggestion:

"How about this though, the Germans have to meet an Industrial and Naval Quota in order for a Final Victory to be completed. That way they assume that they were on their way to the USA??? That would make an added challenge for us."

Seems very reasonable to me..., because anything less than that...to me...seem's like guaranteed failure.

These were the type of discussions i was trying to get off the ground under my own topic 'Something I Hope WILL HAPPEN in SC2!'...but, failed to do so. All i get is comments like 'Interesting'...and 'Phobic' replies of hysteria!.