U.S. Production

[Yogi]

I apologize if this has been covered, I haven't noticed it but was away for a few days and may have missed it.

I have only been able to spend limited time so far playing and against the AI. So far I have noted the very low mp value that the U.S. gets. (This was one of the flaws of SC1) I have tried to increase by investing in production and industrial but so far no luck. Is anyone else having this problem? Has anyone found the answer to getting a reasonably realistic way of getting the U.S. the industrial/production power it should have? Play balance or not aside, ability to run even one reasonable invasion by 1945 is questionable, much less historic actions to North Africa, Sicily and Italy. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Again sorry if this has been covered.

[Exel]

I've noticed it too. The two times I've played on the Allies I haven't been able to mount a decent invasion of Europe before USSR has already practically won the war. Now you might say that it happened like that historically as well - Normandy in 1944 when the result was clear in 1943 at the latest. But like Yogi said there had been the operations in North Africa and Italy well before that. As it is I haven't been able to do much anything with the Americans if I want to invade France before 1945. And even then I've only had 3 Armies, 1 Tank Group and 1 or 2 Paras + HQ to go with.

It's not totally off, but a small boost for the US production would be nice. As it is we are seeing larger UK than US armies in 1944.

[Timskorn]

IT is your #1 MPP ticket. Production is nice, but maxing out IT will give you a significant boost in MPP's. Over the long-run it's almost necessary to have at least level 2 or 3 IT, if not maxed. Especially if your opponent is investing in it.

[Blashy]

Concentrate on having maxed out IT and PT researches.

Level 5 IT is +100% production, so you double.

[pzgndr]

the Allies I haven't been able to mount a decent invasion of Europe before USSR has already practically won the war

Is this with the USSR receiving no Lend Lease from the western allies? I doubt that. If so, we need to make some adjustments in Russia.

More likely, players will max out Lend Lease to USSR and then forget about it. At some point, you have to decide when to cut back Lend Lease so you don't stiffle UK and USA along the way. Timing is important.

[Fartknock3r]

In my game with axisgeneral i have industrial technology lvl 5. USA collects about 350 mpp's a turn, althought i dont have to provide lend lease to the UK because he launched a successful sealion. I think the USA is better fit in sc2.

[Honch]

Use the editor and add a couple of mines to the US. Also start the US at 1 for each of industrial tech, production tech and infrastructure and put one chit in each as well. By 1942 production is way up and much more realistic. After all, the whole war was whether the Axis could win before the US industrial monster took over.

[Yogi]

Thanks Timskorn & Blashy,

I gave it a try and it has helped a bit. Although I still feel that the U.S. is under rated again as far as industrial power is concerned. I really thought that would be fixed from SC1. As far as using the editor, it may work, but a game shouldn't need "artificial" editing to work well. Editing should be for what if fun. Just an opinion.

Still, I am enjoying the game and am glad that I took the risk of pre-order.

[pzgndr]

In my game with axisgeneral i have industrial technology lvl 5. USA collects about 350 mpp's a turn

I still feel that the U.S. is under rated again

Really? 350 MPPs per turn, combined with high production technology to reduce unit costs, relative to whatever Axis is producing in 1944-45, seems rated well enough. Do players expect USA to jump into the war in 1942-43 at full production potential??

Historical reality check. USA was NOT prepared for war in 1941. It took a couple of years to ramp up the industrial base and mobilize for major combat operations in Europe. IMHO, SC2 recreates this pretty well, and much better than SC1. Maybe not perfect, but close.

[Timskorn]

Yep, and you have to look at the USA in the context of the whole picture. By itself, 350 MPP may not seem like a lot, but for the most part the US is using this exclusively for production and research. They're not on the front lines repairing expensive equipment. When you finally do attack in France it forces Germany to divert critical units away from the Russian front, essentially removing all those MPP's from the east.

If US was getting 500 MPP's a turn they'd have a fully geared up massive army to sweep into Germany with before the Russians dug themselves out from Stalingrad.

[Yogi]

Originally posted by Timskorn:

Yep, and you have to look at the USA in the context of the whole picture. By itself, 350 MPP may not seem like a lot, but for the most part the US is using this exclusively for production and research. They're not on the front lines repairing expensive equipment. When you finally do attack in France it forces Germany to divert critical units away from the Russian front, essentially removing all those MPP's from the east.

If US was getting 500 MPP's a turn they'd have a fully geared up massive army to sweep into Germany with before the Russians dug themselves out from Stalingrad.

Well, still only limited experience so I hate to make final judgements. Currently against the AI in the first week of June 1944 I am about to launch D-Day. Very little air power as not enough U.S. MPP's to have created it. Oh the Russians never had to relieve Stalingrad and they are currently at Berlin. The USSR is vastly outproducing the U.S. (and UK combined) with their MPP's. Nice when you can devote over 600 a turn into research as well. So I still think the game is off on this, but it is early and the game was well worth the investment.

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by Yogi:

Thanks Timskorn & Blashy,

I gave it a try and it has helped a bit. Although I still feel that the U.S. is under rated again as far as industrial power is concerned. I really thought that would be fixed from SC1. As far as using the editor, it may work, but a game shouldn't need "artificial" editing to work well. Editing should be for what if fun. Just an opinion.

Still, I am enjoying the game and am glad that I took the risk of pre-order.

Keep in mind that early US production in SC2 is linked to its % commitment to the Allies - the US at 20% pro-allied is only producing 20% of it's MPPs. This leads to a VERY slow start for the US and takes some getting used to. Also keep in mind that Europe is 90% of the US production of ground troops, about 1/2 of the aircraft, and maybe 10-15% of the naval resources, the rest is going into the Pacific - the US is building the equivalent of one to two ships a TURN for the Pacific, plus repairing damage. Total US resources should be about 700 at full rip. What people may not like is the inabiity to apportion US resources between Europe and the Pacific. I have no idea if this could be addressed in the scripts.

[Blashy]

If you gave USA 700mpps per turn, it would be a total imbalance.

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by Blashy:

If you gave USA 700mpps per turn, it would be a total imbalance.

Which is why I didn't recommend doing so. Personally, I'm happy with the compromises SC2 makes to address US Production and commitments to a 2-Front war.

[Exel]

I'm not suggesting a huge boost to US production. It is pretty well balanced even as it is now. It just needs a tad bit of an increase.

With the current resources you basically have to choose between three things:

- Invasion of North Africa and Italy before 1944

- Invasion of France before 1945

- Air campaign

Can't do all. Which is not exactly correct, since all three were effectively carried out historically.

I'll have to try with heavier investments in IT and PT before commenting further though. In my previous games I've invested 1-2 chits and gained 1-2 levels in each. Investing more feels like a large gamble - anyone got more solid experience about the matter (in relation to the above goals)?

[Blashy]

You HAVE to have USA at level 5 in PT and IT tech.

Or you can do the NA campaign, start buying an HQ and troops ASAP. When USA joins, you should have enough troops to take the NA part of Vichy France and Tunisia.

After that you can invest hard in IT and PT.

[Panzerkeil]

What do you guys think of the idea of using the option so that investment and diplomacy chits remain invested after an advance, i.e. non-consumable chits? I've been playing that way against the AI as the Allies and it certainly helps the Allies to ramp up their production over time, especially US. I use the early MPP's of the US and invest them in IT, Intel and IP.

I am aware that the AI does not upgrade, so this does not yet benefit the AI, but I was wondering if any of you guys have tried this in head to head games and if it unbalanced the game. Still, even with non-consumable chits US production could not keep up with that of the USSR. Please forgive me as newcomer if I state my opinion, but I still feel that American production needs a boost, in light of what they did historically: Torch 42, Italy 43, Normandy 44 and at the same time a heavy air campaign which essentially wiped out the Luftwaffe by mid 44.

[Blashy]

I tried it A LOT in beta, because I thought consumable chits was crazy.

I changed my mind not long after.

1- It makes Diplomacy way too easy to achieve.

2- It changes the game into a tech frenzy, where everyone is maxed out in 4-5 areas and close to that in others.

I'm a diehard supporter of consumable chits now.

[Panzerkeil]

Thanks for the reply. That's the kind of info I was looking for, from experienced players. Still, do you think in light of the fact that chits are consumable that they are too expensive?

[Yogi]

Can't do all. Which is not exactly correct, since all three were effectively carried out historically

I agree and that is the point I was trying to make. I have not yet found a way to reasonably reflect the US role, perhaps I will later. In my game, I managed to take North Africa, but totally with UK forces (and a poor Axis AI no doubt) I have managed to get one US Army into Italy with UK forces but that is it. I have gotten a couple of armies, tank, one bomber and one HQ to England to be used for D-Day but that is it. That massive Air power & sea power seen in the real thing has not been able to be done. With so much effort going to build MPP's, little could be done to improve upgrade quality.

Taking the two front war into consideration, the game apparently has decided to send most of the war effort to the Pacific.

Maybe with production delay being turned off, it would make it more possible to build forces in time for use, I haven't tried that yet.

[Blashy]

Diplomacy should not be an investing festival. Investing in countries that are leaning towards you is cheap IMO (50mpps). While the rest are for the most part a gamble and diplomacy is always gambling to some extent.

Tech, well I am of the opinion that getting tech is too easy as is (that's just me). So I'm obviously fine with as is or making it more difficult to achieve tech.

[Yogi]

One more thing about lack of mpp ability,

HQ's are certainly expensive as perhaps they should be. But having both Eisenhower and Patton means little if any forces for them to command. In fact in my game other than the auto created HQ for UK in North Africa it is pretty hard to create one for them as well, in June of 44 I'm still waiting.

I intend to keep working at it to see if I can get a reasonable US/UK ability. On the allied plus side, Russia has had no trouble becoming the worlds greatest power. After they take Berlin, I think they will go for Paris, London and Washington. Maybe by the end of 1948 or so it can be a two power world after which they can take out Japan and have it all to themselves.

[Fartknock3r]

I seem to be doing well with the US in my game. I invaded ireland and am using that as a base to liberate the UK. despite a long siege of Egypt, i broke out and conquered the middle east and took libya. In ireland i have 1 HQ 4 armies 1 bomber, and am wiating for my 2 Air Fleets to arrive before i try any offensive operations. I have 6 extra army's as a reserve. (ireland is to small for em! ) I also have another hq in USA, im keeping them for a huge invasion of mainland europe, after i liberate the UK. Industrial and production technology is a huge need IMO for the USA, just as it seems spain is needed for the axis.

[Blashy]

Spain is not needed by the Axis but is a huge boost and a crippling blow the Allied MED forces.

But you can win without having Spain as Axis.

[Exel]

And you can win as the Allies without the US. In all my games as the Allies USSR has already solved the outcome of the war before the UK and US forces have been able to mount any significant campaigns on Europe (not including the British Med forces taking NA and Italy).