[D-Day] 60 Divisions & 300,000 troops wrong position, who's responsible?

[jon_j_rambo]

Okay, just curious who set up the defense of France for the Germans? Was in Von Rundstedt? Goering (failed at Battle of Britain)? Rommel? Hitler?

Actually, it was James Garner!

In SC2, the Germans are given an endless supply of great leaders, while the US's best is Eisenhower. Yet, Ike wasn't truly a General in the same regards as the German's leaders.

So, whoever was the involved in the terrible German defense at Normandy (troops at Calaais), shouldn't that be part of the game? Who was calling the shots?

Also, Ike should be increased!

[ June 30, 2006, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Timskorn]

I believe it was Rommel who was charged with the defenses.

[AZGungHo]

Rommel was in command of the troops on the coast, he answered to Von Rundstedt who of course answered to Hitler.

All of them thought the Allies were coming into Calais area, and with the exception of Herr Hitler, they weren't bad generals, just wrong in this case.

Due in no small part to the excellent deception program the Allies put into effect. I don't know how you'd model that in a game like this other than the Allies having the freedom to invade where ever they like, which of course we do have!

Beyond that I can't see anywhere else to go.

[jon_j_rambo]

The US leaders pulled off some great manuevers, D-Day & Midway come to mind. The leadership of Ike needs raised.

[jon_j_rambo]

36 Hours, a GREAT MOVIE. It shows how we tricked the famous Rommell, Van Rundsteadt, & Adolf. We won with James Garner, baby!

James Garner is excellent in this WWII thriller about Major Pike, a man who is drugged and kidnapped on a mission in Lisbon, which was a hub of intrigue during the war years. He is taken to an "American hospital" in Germany, where they tell him he has amnesia, and has been hospitalized for years, in hopes of getting information on where and when the Allied invasion will take place. With some hair dye and eye drops that blur his vision, and a newspaper that is dated "May 15, 1950", Maj. Pike is disoriented, and believes the elaborate hoax, but has an uneasy feeling that all is not as it seems.

The people who pretend to be "helping him" are Eva Marie Saint as his nurse, Anna, who has a numbered tattoo from Auschwitz, and will do anything not to be sent back there, and Rod Taylor as Major Gerber, the psychiatrist. Werner Peters is the evil SS Agent Schack, whose only interest is in his own promotion. The main thrust of the plot is how Maj. Pike is to survive, and how he can keep the Nazis in the dark about D-Day. There are a few twists to the story, which for the most part holds water, though there is a slight discrepancy that to me is now obvious, but I have seen this film countless times, and do not think I noticed it until the 3rd viewing.

The taut script is based on Roald Dahl's "Beware of the Dog", and the direction by George Seaton is nicely paced with many tense moments. Dimitri Tiomkin composed the soundtrack, and the black & white cinematography by Philip Lathrop was shot on location in Portugal, Germany and Yosemite National Park. Total running time is 115 minutes.

[Slapaho]

The great American leader Montgomery was in charge at D-Day.

Ike was in a politico/military position and did it very well, although criticised for some decisions, I agree, I believe he should have the highest rating in the game. A great general like Zhukov was great at the expense of huge numbers of [his own] men and materials. If the U.S. or Britain would of accepted great losses in finishing the war quicker then maybe Patton, Bradley, Montgomery, etc. would also have been 'greater'.

"Woof woof woof, thats my other dog" - Oddball

[Blashy]

Rommel was not sold on the ONE spot invasion.

He specifically asked for 2 things.

That the whole beachfronts be mined all along the coast, he asked for 2 million mines, he was refused (they had them).

He then asked that his reserve tank groups be split up so they can cover the whole coast, Rundstedt refused to do so.

The last one the allies have stated was the big thing, had Rommel gotten his wish it would have been an absolute bloodbath.

He did leave the front just before the invasion becaus he expected bad weather. He was misinformed obviously.

[AZGungHo]

Agreed. He, and almost the entire German high command believed Normandy was a diversion to the main show that would take place at Calie - or however you spell it!!

Their own belief that the shortest route would be the best and the many Allied disinformation plan work about as well as they could have.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

The US leaders pulled off some great manuevers, D-Day & Midway come to mind. The leadership of Ike needs raised.

It is supposed to be at 10 in my mod but I forget to do it. I will in next upload.

The way he organised the largest invasion in history with all its tactical, strategical and political issues is amazing and the casualty ratio is quite extraordinary as well.

[Slapaho]

The way he organised the largest invasion in history with all its tactical, strategical and political issues is amazing and the casualty ratio is quite extraordinary as well

Yes, Montgomery did a great job of this.

[jon_j_rambo]

What did the Germans do with their millions of mines? Save them for another rainy day? The famous Rommel was delivering a pair of shoes to his wife, that deserves a downgrade on the Desert Fox!

[Desert Dave]

The famous Rommel was delivering a pair of shoes to his wife, that deserves a downgrade on the Desert Fox!

Well, jjr,

We have already taken that into account,

Hence,

Downgraded from 10... to 8.

Patton?

Also downgraded,

From 9... to 7.

His unforgivable dereliction?

Being very well-read and,

Not least... quoting poetry. LOLOL!

[Maverik]

Some historians think that as Rommel was unsuited as a defensive General. Afterall he was used to leading from the front in mobile warfare. It's a pit the game doesn't have different rating from attacking and defending (for HQ's).

Some Generals were expert at deffending (Kesselring) while others were not. Otherwise I think Rommels rating is ok. I'd go as far a minus one point.

[Scrogdog]

Dear Dave,

Not to hijack the topic or anything, but the actual quote is;

"Whoever battles monsters should take care not to become a monster too, for if you stare long enough into the Abyss, the Abyss stares also into you."

—Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, chapter 4, no. 146

Carry on.

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by Scrogdog:

Dear Dave,

Not to hijack the topic or anything, but the actual quote is;

"Whoever battles monsters should take care not to become a monster too, for if you stare long enough into the Abyss, the Abyss stares also into you."

—Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, chapter 4, no. 146

Carry on.

Dear Scrogdog,

[... cool Nick BTW, wherefrom that?]

Thank you for the precise quote... although,

Could it be - I have a different

Translation?

Mine went:

______________________________

He who fights with Monsters should see to it that he does not become a Monster himself. And when you stare into the Abyss, the Abyss also stares into you.

______________________________

Same source, different Cat teasing out the scat, I'd guess?

Now,

I left off the 2nd sentence because I am only allowed just so many "characters" in my sig line.

And, I didn't want to overly clutter the space, as I am 8.47% OCD (... obsessive compulsive disorder, for those who might giv a plug nickel)

And for the life of me,

COULD NOT squeeze them things together, not

To mention, feng shui of the Netscapade,

REQUIRES particular... letter & line.

RATHER THAN delete any of my prior signature, which I have had for quite some time now, and, truly, have become kind of... attached to,

Rather, I mean to say, IT has glommed upon me! :eek:

Well, ipso Calypso, there youse got it.

Explanation,

NO expiration,

And certainly not!

ANY obfuscation. I wouldn't think?

______________________

Ooops,

Forgot to mention.

I had you in my Mod as HQ

With rating of 8.

However,

Since you are hip to such strange epiphenomenon

As you have above clearly demonstrated,

I MUST, sorry, downgrade you to... a 6.

[Scrogdog]

Dear Dave,

[... cool Nick BTW, wherefrom that?]

It came from my near legendary abilty to crush opponents in chess. Well, uh.... actually no. It actually came from a comment made to me by someone who had a bit of a mistaken idea regarding my prowess with women. My friends and I broke in to belly laughter, and the rest... as they say... is history.

As for the rest, that was meant as a slight tease... a little joke... I am well aware that there are many translations. In fact, some are comepletely different from what either of us say. As a matter of fact, while the post was not meant as a serious "attack" in any way... I smiled during its writing in full knowledge of the flowery prose that I would indeed recieve in return.

However, though I never meant to give offense, I appear to have done so. So for that, I do apologize. It was only meant as a friendly jibe, if you will.

A 6? I'll take a 6. Way above what I'd rate in real life.

Carry on.

[Desert Dave]

However, though I never meant to give offense, I appear to have done so. So for that, I do apologize. It was only meant as a friendly jibe, if you will.

And that's how I read it, no offense taken, ScrogDog.

See,

You are not the ONLY one who has stated

They do not "reckon" my writing style.

For that I suppose I should apologize,

And yet... comes down to it... no,

Don't like to look back,

Somethin' might be gainin' on me!

(... RE: Satchel Paige)

I am age-old believer in "spontaneous flow"

However

It may materialise.

In writing.

In chess.

Neither so exciting to some other

Shoot'em up SC Cats, but

That! proverbial prowess!

Real,

Or even alleged - I'd take that! LOL!

[John C]

Yep. Nietzsche was obviously German, so the quote is actually:

Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.

So the literal translation would be:

Who with monsters fights, should look to it, that he not thereby himself a monster becomes. And when you for a long time into an abyss look, looks the abyss also into you.

Anything beyond that is simply poetic license of the translator.

EDIT: For whatever it is worth, DD's translation appears to be closer to original text.

[ July 02, 2006, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: John C ]

[Gérard Le Poer Trench]

Rommel was commander of the armies on the atlantic wall from cherbourg to le havre and von rundstedt was the commander of the west front

[BEN1]

Rommel wanted a forward defence of the Panzers, Von Rundstedt favoured the more traditional and conventional idea of keeping the reserves (Panzers) back so they could be concentrated at one point.

However Rommel had in North Africa experienced conditions where the Allies had total air superiority and how it would greatly hinder Rundstedt's plan to concentrate all his Panzers in one place. Rundstedt had commanded in Poland, France and Russa where Luftwaffe airpower was dominant

[Liam]

I heard even Rommel had thought Calais so he held back, as did Hitler. The fact is the Allies could've been pushed into the Sea day one if those Panzers hadn't been held back, most of the beachheads were a nightmare, the Germans were not ready! That is a frightening thought, we had virtually no real protection, but deception and the Fake Patton Army in Eastern England threw off the Germans. It was like the deceptions in North Africa.

My personal opinion is also that Rommel showed a little weakness. Or too much reservations on know Von Runstedt was old school and would've held back his men, last thing he would want is to make an error. Men like Rommel and Manstein were more bold more aggressive opposed to some of their Former Commanders.. Both did bold manuevers both lacked the resources to really win.

Patton was no fool, he was bold, brash and strong. He had fought in Mexico, personally gotten involved in a frey long before WW2 and was a Celebrity in the USA. He had guts, grit and determination, a Cowboy... But he like Rommel was a Commander in the field, best suited to that. Ike was a little more reserved but a WISE commander.. He was Chief Allied Commander so that does stand for something, really he should because of his status be allowed to also control British/Canadian Units... That would help the USA

Rommel was wounded and was later executed for his involvement in the conspiracy to kill Adolf Hitler. He did show interest in the attempted Coup, sadly noone remebers these brave Soldats who gave their lives in an attempt to save Germany. It is very well that the Brits could've executed Hitler, they really didn't want to. They knew he was lousing things up so badly the Germans would likely lose faster and they'd rather that than an able man like Admiral Doenitz(sp in control of the situation. And many others... Then the war could've gone on another 6 months or a year.. Who knows perhaps a negotiation?

Anyways not to say the old school generals were bad, many of them wanted a Retreat out of Russia after the bad losses, which would've been wise it was a war of attrittion the Germans couldn't win anyways.

The Americans had MacArthur, Patton, Bradley, Ike and few others.. They had a few Air Generals, and some good Navy men too.. well rounded altogether. They were not the best because they didn't have as much experience Killing probably Rambo.. That's the primary Difference and they weren't put in the positions as some of their opponents, likewise many of the French/Russian and UK leaders are underrated due to their position and situation rather than their skill.

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Okay, just curious who set up the defense of France for the Germans? Was in Von Rundstedt? Goering (failed at Battle of Britain)? Rommel? Hitler?

Actually, it was James Garner!

In SC2, the Germans are given an endless supply of great leaders, while the US's best is Eisenhower. Yet, Ike wasn't truly a General in the same regards as the German's leaders.

So, whoever was the involved in the terrible German defense at Normandy (troops at Calaais), shouldn't that be part of the game? Who was calling the shots?

Also, Ike should be increased!