Malta

[arado234]

I get what your saying bromley but the tech.didnot exist during ww2 for the ability to develop rockets to shoot that far in the numbers required to cause the damage they cause.The russians fired over 13,000 stalin organs at berlin.That is just one battle.They built and fired tens of thousands of these over the course of the war.There is no way you could build that many v2 type rockets.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by arado234:

I get what your saying bromley but the tech.didnot exist during ww2 for the ability to develop rockets to shoot that far in the numbers required to cause the damage they cause.The russians fired over 13,000 stalin organs at berlin.That is just one battle.They built and fired tens of thousands of these over the course of the war.There is no way you could build that many v2 type rockets.

That all depends, if the player spends 5 chits in Rocket tech, then this means he has is scientists working on such technology.

You "might" get V2s, but you will give somewhere else... IW, AT, HT, PT, IT, Artillery, etc... somewhere that country will have a weakness.

[targul]

Removing the rockets from Russia would not be good unless they get the artillery they did have.

I remain surprised there no arty for for Russia.

Jim

[Blashy]

Originally posted by targul:

Removing the rockets from Russia would not be good unless they get the artillery they did have.

I remain surprised there no arty for for Russia.

Jim

Where did you read that there was no artillery for Russia in the expansion pack? .

[arado234]

Im not saying remove them but decrease their max.range to two hexes.Tech.would improve killing power only,which is what they were used for.Blashy just because the tech.is available it doesnt mean the resources and time are.The rockets in ww2(v2s aside)were just a glorified 4th of july rocket.A v2 is an I.C.B.M.Your comparing apples and oranges.I love using them but i think the range they shoot is far to great.

[Blashy]

Rockets reached London, that is way more than 2 tiles.

And Rockets were not used for damage at all, they were used as a demoralizing weapon. They knew full well the damaged caused would be very little.

I prefer they have a default start range of 3 with all attack values start at 0 with a maximum tech of 3 levels, this way they have a max range of 6 with attack of 3.

[arado234]

I know they hit london but in sporatic attacks not thousands upon thousands at once(again I.C.B.M vs 4th of july special)The v2 was a strategic weapon and the stalin organs nebelwerfer etc were more of a tac.weapon.The russians used them strategicly sometimes because they had so many of them Maybe somehow you could have it that the v2 type rockets be a seperate weapon.This could then reflect the cost and time to build them.You could also have a seperate tech.for them.

[jon_j_rambo]

But if you closed tank factories for rockets, it's a different coversation.

[Blashy]

Ah ok.

Artillery will simulate what you are describing (shells, rockets). They are in the expansion pack.

[Minty]

Blashy wrote "and Rockets were not used for damage at all, they were used as a demoralizing weapon. They knew full well the damaged caused would be very little"

My dad grew up after the war in London near a street that had been hit by a V2. Whole street completely gone and everyone in it, regardless of whether they were in shelters or not. left a huge crater you could play football in.

If they had had enough of them and started in 42 or 43, not 44 when the Allies could overrun the missile sites ,then the admin centre of the brirish empire would have been wiped off the map. maybe not a total war winner for adolf but a major spanner in the works for all the allies. Soviets included.

[arado234]

The v2 only carried a 1600lb warhead.The allies dropped bombs up to 20,000lbs.Most felt strategic bombing wouldnot win the a war.Blashy if your saying artillery will be simulated in the new expansion pack then thats great.I also hope that there is the chance to develop v2 rockets in the new expansion pack.

[Guest Mike]

The number of 20,000lb bombs dropped in WW2 was 41. That's forty-one.

To get 1600 lbs oh HE in a bomb you have to have about a 3000lb bomb - RAF bombs were normally about 50% explosive by weight.

Most bombs dropped in WW2 were, of course, smaller than this - 500, 1000 and 2000 lbs.

Over 3000 V-2's were launched - over 1600 at targets in Belgium, 1400 vs Britain and a handful vs Netherlands and Remagen in Germany.

In addition V-1's can reasonably be expected to be represented by rockets in SC2 - 30,000 were made, 10,000 were fired at England, 4200 were known to be shot down, 2400 reached London.

The Wiki page for the V-1 has a 1944 comparison betwen the effect of German night bombing vs the V-1 offensives vs London - the V-1's look very good, causing almost as much damage with much much less resource.

The V-1 and V-2 were very effective weapons - the allies were very lucky they didn't arrive a bit earlier and in greater numbers.

The V-3 would have utterly devastated London too.

[arado234]

Im not questioning the possible effect ov the v2 as a strategic weapon im saying it could never be built in the numbers to have the tactical effect(because of numbers needed)this game implies.Im saying it should have its own designation and its on tech. just like we have strategic and tactical bombers. Remember the allies dropped 2.8 MILLION tons of bombs on germany and yet germany kept fighting.I dont see the v weapons causing the brits to give up.A 3000lb bomb is much cheaper and easier to build than the v2 rocket.

[Minty]

Arado, you're right about the 1600lb (still nearly a tonne!) of explosives on the V2 not being that much. but the missile was huge and travelling straight down from sub orbit at Mach 5+. That's a hell of a lot of kinetic energy. I've had the misfortune to see 3 urban bombsites. the second the most well known, ground zero in Manhattan. Well a V2 had a lot more destructive power than a Boeing 737, just the nazis weren't daft enough to pilot them on top of Big ben. The second is far less well known but applicable. it was the last IRA bomb set off in london ( by an IRA splinter group that rejected the peace process) in Ealing, west london, about a week before the Sept 11th attcaks. A small van ( miniwan / truck) with about a 200lbs of not especially HE from homemade fertiliser. It went off about 2am in the morning on Ealing high street near where I was staying at the time and amazingly no one was killed. but it wrecked the high street, a year later they were still repairing buildings and rebuilding shops. The third was the wreckage of a in London 2 year ago from a one man carrying around 20lbs of very poor explosive. He and 3 of his evil friends killed over 50 peopl and wounded hundreds more. those recent attacks (like the Madrid bombings also and what happens in Iraq daily) were especailly devastating because they wer surprise attacks that were made on a unsuspecting population that did not stay in shelters eveyrnight, or sandbag and tape windows. They also were accurately placed in a way no WW2 weapon could have been.

My point is that if one, just one, V2 landed in a modern city on Europe or USA now it would cause a huge mess. The germans missed with most of theirs and only really sent them over for a couple of months. with another year's research and aerial intelligence of where they were hitting they would have been quite capable of rendering Southampton or Portsmouth quiet unusable for any D Day.

Rockets should be a seperate tech and if researched to a higher level, earlier in the game, are both a strategic and tactical option.

[arado234]

Yes minty if we had a seperate tech.for strategic rockets then with enough research the germans could really have a chance of slowing a possible allied invasion of europe.

[Guest Mike]

By comparison the Oklahoma City bomb contained about 5000lbs of fertiliser-based explosives.....

V-2's containing 1/3rd of that hit London at the rate of about 3-4 per day (on average), and Antwerp at about 3-9/day depending on the source - 9 a day from Wiki (a 175 day bombardment with 1600 rockets), 3/day from here ....plus another 4 -12 V-1's /day..

One hit a theatre in Antwerp in December 1944 killing almost 600 people, another killed 160 people in London. Damage to Antwerp docks was significant - 1 ship was sunk, 16 damaged, docks and railway marshalling yards were put out of action for short periods of time - but supplies were diverted through Ghent and it was never more than an awkward hinderance to the allied resupply effort.

On november 27 1944 a V-2 hit an intersection in Antwerp jsut as a british convoy was passing through - 126 were killed (26 british & us soldiers), 309 wounded.

Antwerp was called "The city of sudden death" in a US Army magazine in March 1945.

Fall of V-weapons on Antwerp compiled by the city authorities immediately afterh the war - black are V-1 "incidents", blue are V-1 landfall only", red are V-2 "incidents", yellow are V-2 "landfall only"

Shot of the damage caused by the very 1st V-2 to hit antwerp:

Maybe as many as half the rockets exploded in flight or hit so far away from their targets as to be useless.....fortunately the Germans did NOT get to tech level 5 in the real world!!

[ June 14, 2007, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Stalin's Organist ]

[Konigs]

Thanks Stalins Organ. V-2 were a credible threat to the war effort. Imagine them starting a hair earlier and actually devoloping a better gyro(guidance system). Some accuracy could have caused some major issues.

Another post earlier stated the bombs used by allies were cheaper. Cheaper in cost of bomb only, add in the bombers, bomber ground crews, fuel, mg ammo, airfields thier upkeep, the fighters and their techs their airfields their crews and the training for all of them and the supply line to keep all them flying and you will understand how much cheaper it was to build a missle out of non-critical material, and launch it from a ramp. Germany had jets in fall of 39 and could have had jet fighters in '41 and rockets the same year, thanks to their leaders they tried to build a navy instead. Otherwise all those wasted resources could have built a lot of war items. Just my 2 cents....

[arado234]

Konigs i said that but i think you are missing the one important fact which is the allies massive ind.output.They dropped 2.7 million tons of bombs on germany.The average v2 has a 1600lb war head(factor in the weight and time to build a whole rocket).To come close to the amout of bomb tonnage dropped the germans would have had to built about 17,000 v2s.Good luck with that.The allies had the manpower and resources to keep everything going germany didnt.But for this game you are right in the fact that since the ind.outputs arenot at historical levels a seperate v2 weapon may have a benifical effect for germany.I think it should be included in a further upgrade.What do you think about adding a seperate v2 weapon?

[arado234]

Konigs,stalins Organs just think what would have happened if germany had gone allout tech.on the v2 program combined with an allout atomic program.Then we would have had a different story.I dont know if they could have pulled it off though because of the costs and the fact that we had ultra and most likley would have found out and taken counter measures.

[Blashy]

Arado, don't worry about a seperate V weapon.

With artillery in the expansion pack, rockets are now on their own a unique weapon...

And as I said before, if a player goes the heavy V2 rocket technology route, he will have to spend 500mpps (for Germany alone) in tech and then purchase each rocket.

Which, as the Yoda of SC2 would probably state, it means your enemy has a weakness somewhere else.

So the Germans probably could have gone with having huge amounts of V2s, but they would have been weak in another area.

[jon_j_rambo]

Now you're learning Tony.

[Iron Ranger]

Nice write up guys, really loved it.

V3.. great mention Portsmith... Hitler was fixated on London, could have rasied hell with allied D-day by changing to this city V2s so inaccurte? From what I read the allie's had turned alot of the German spys in england, the V2 was on target at the start but through false reports back to german the turned spy's convinsed GHQ that they were hitting mainly south of the city and 'pushed' the main drop zone north of London were less damage was done.

[arado234]

It would have been real ugly if it had a different warhead.