plunder-system is a laugher, time for a patch

[jon_j_rambo]

I don't get this plunder thing...more units alive gets you more cash? As I attack, I think of ways to protect the enemy? Why would you get more MMPs for units left alive? Don't get it.

-Legend

[Blashy]

We know (and have known about it), you're reading the Terif Condor AAR, you must have read my post about it?

So why start a new thread?

[jon_j_rambo]

Why start thread...let me think...to make a better game?

Son, if you want a management role, you must accept the negative & deal with it in mature manner.

[Blashy]

But when you know it is ALREADY known and being addressed... kind of a redundant post.

[jon_j_rambo]

Okay Blashy, why don't we play a game?

[Blashy]

Not yet, still doing some testing.

And you don't play pbem, while I don't have the time to paly network.

[Ike99]

Why start thread...let me think...to make a better game?

Son, if you want a management role, you must accept the negative & deal with it in mature manner.

John have you forgotten what forum your on? At this webpage you tow the party line or get shouted down and your thread locked.

What's the matter with you man, I thought you knew the the rules here!? :cool:

[jon_j_rambo]

@Blashy --- Dude, I will play you PBEM! It will be an instant classic.

[Blashy]

Alright.

You can play Axis, I want to smack you with Patton .

Again, gimme some time a few weeks, still busy with testing stuff.

[TaoJah]

What is plunder ? Military equipment being taken from a country.

The more units of a unit surrender, the more equipment it takes.

That's how I explain it to myself.

[Timskorn]

Not sure how many French SMG's the Germans smelted down for a new U-boat, but I'm guessing none. I'm sure they did something like this to an extent, but to revolve a big gameplay element around it seems a bit much.

[Sombra]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

What is plunder ? Military equipment being taken from a country.

The more units of a unit surrender, the more equipment it takes.

That's how I explain it to myself.

Only in the real world commanders usally don´t order their men to commit suicide to prevent. Now play against a human and then you will see what this is all about. As Blashy said there will be a fix. Thanks Blashy for the info

[Ike99]

jon_j_rambo -Okay Blashy, why don't we play a game?

Blashy -Not yet, still doing some testing.

I think this is called "backpeddling" :cool:

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Timskorn:

...but to revolve a big gameplay element around it seems a bit much.

What could "plunder" consist of, I wonder?

1) Captured combat resources that might be converted in some fashion.

2) RE: France... taking great paintings out of the Louvre and storing them in private galleries or in Switzerland.

3) "Nationalist" units formed from National Socialist sympathizers... of which there were very many all over West, North and Eastern Europe.

4) Part of unwilling populace drafted to become factotums in vital war industries.

5) Psychological: tremendous victories in foreign lands = rejuvenated population back home and revitalized, even, jubilant soldiers.

6) Ongoing borrowing of bulk minerals, bank deposits, food and water, top-secret documents of all kinds and not least, fuel reserves.

7) Gaining "momentum" from your enemy, out of his mind.

The list is much longer than this,

No doubt others could add to it.

[jon_j_rambo]

Don't forget the gold in the bank of Kelly's Heroes.

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by Timskorn:

Not sure how many French SMG's the Germans smelted down for a new U-boat, but I'm guessing none. I'm sure they did something like this to an extent, but to revolve a big gameplay element around it seems a bit much.

Well, not many, but the Germans essentially looted France to prepare for Barbarossa - especially for motor vehicles like tanks, trucks, tractors, and prime movers. It also helped that many of the German minor allies used French equipment and this allowed Germany to send them a lot of things like ammunition, spare parts, and replacement gun tubes without having to replace the with German equipment needed for their own army. Helmets, greatcoats, belts, boots - more stuff goes into your armed forces than just tanks, planes, and ships.

Admittedly it isn't very sexy to be worrying about boot wastage when you are planning to conquer Russia, so I think the plunder mechanism is a nice compromise. For what it's worth I don't think it should be based upon remaining troops but on some function of country base MPP's reduced by a percentage for each turn it takes to conquer (2% per turn, perhaps?).

[santabear]

The concept of plunder is a kludge to simplify a lot of factors. But creating a game in which the attacker is trying to protect defending units and the defender is trying to sacrifice them is way out of whack...no matter how it's "explained."

I'm sure it will be fixed--soon. (But didn't the play testers run into this problem?)

Why create a new thread? Why not? To paraphrase Churchill: What is the point of having a forum if it's not a place to bring true statements before the public? I recall that guy had to make his point more than once--maybe he's not a bad precedent?

[JerseyJohn]

Blashy,

It's perfectly valid to start a thread on this, or any other topic, regardless of whether or not it's mentioned elsewhere in a discussion. Starting a thread is so all the people who haven't read the other thread will be able to offer opinions on the topic.

I'm glad he started it and glad you're responding. At this point so many people have spoken up about the plunder system that it warrents a thread of it's own.

Well said, Santabear.

Brother Rambo, Good idea, it's an area that definitely needs to be dealt with.

Tao Jah, Yeah, that's one way of looking at it, but plunder can also be had from units destroyed in battle. In North Africa the Germans were very good at combing the field and utilizing wreckage. Rommel's own command car was of British origin and came in handy more than once when, covered with dust, it passed UK units who went by it's silhouette and didn't capture him.

DD,

Fine list, enjoyed it. Historically, Germany made tremendous use of captured Czech equipment, used a huge number of vehicles taken from the French along with all of the oil it consumed during the opening months of Barbarossa.

As mentioned earlier by Cheese Panzer. Yes, France was a treasure chest for the conquering Germans, who also used the captured French Army as a source of forced labor.

In North Africa, British fuel captured at Tobruck was the main reason Rommel was allowed to continue into Egypt and for the cancellation of the Malta drop and landings. In that case it probably would have been better for the victor if there hadn't been so much plunder.

-- One German mechanic in the Afrika Korps said it used so many different makes of vehicles that replacing parts soon became a major problem. The divisional machine shops often improvised, making the best copies possible of the broken vehicle parts.

To me, plunder shouldn't be directly tied to captured weapons and military vehicles, but to the amount of usable material to be confiscated in a conquered nation.

-- Which brings us back to an old issue in SC-1. How does the United States or the UK get plunder when neither of them confiscated private property?

The standard answer was that it represented the locals joining the liberators and tossing in whatever loose materials happened to be available after ousting the oppressors.

[Desert Dave]

DD,

Fine list, enjoyed it. Historically, Germany made tremendous use of captured Czech equipment, used a huge number of vehicles taken from the French along with all of the oil it consumed during the opening months of Barbarossa.

Thanks, Boardwalk Raconteur, your own list was no slouch.

Yep, plunder of fuels was vital,

Even to the extent of turning all the cars

And trucks & trolleys

Upside down!

In all them picture-postcard French towns,

So to drain the treasured petrol,

And funnel it into those

Soon enough doomed

Staff cars & Panzers, LOL!

Great commentary on the Generals, BTW.

One question.

(... selfishly, for my own Mod)

Who was, or were the best Leaders

For the following countries,

**(... and what ratings would you assign? I have since reconsidered my rating of "7" for Guderian and will use your recommended "8"... it was my initial instinct, but I down-graded by one, since he wasn't full Field Marshal; thing is, even if merely a Tech Sergeant, hurryin' Heinz was instrumental to the whole concept of "Op-eratic blitzkrieg," so, IMO, I prefer to have him included)

1) Rumania

2) Australia/New Zealand

3) Sweden

I could google it, or access that wikipedia even,

But I TRUST yer long-standing insight

And hard-learned judgement.

[Retributar]

I, if not mistaken...am reasonably certain that Rommel's Command Car...Yes!, was of British Origin, but was Originally...Canadian Made!.

Doesn't really matter!,...it's Neither really here nor there,...it's just a nagging snag in my head for some unknown reason.

As far as the Captured Czech 'Tanks' go...i recall that the German's incorporated all of those captured tanks into their Panzer Divisions [As these tanks were superior to what they had]...as well as continued production of those same tanks in the Czech tank factories.

[ April 24, 2006, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Desert Dave]

Retributar, being totally honest:

Doesn't really matter!,...it's Neither really here nor there,...it's just a nagging snag in my head for some unknown reason.

LOL!

I get those "nagging snags" too.

Got to add your original quote

To my "all-time favorite"

SC postings, LOL! :cool:

[JerseyJohn]

Retributar

Now it's nagging me too!

Yeah, know what you mean, we've all got those loose end tendrils in the back of our minds. Probably most of them destined to never be adequately answered.

DD,

Appreciated. This has turned out to be a very interesting topic. Regarding the plunder of French oil, it brings to mind those old films of mules and horses pulling French vehicles set in neutral for the duration of the war.

Bringing the part about the generals back to the Guderian thread, which I think is on Pg 3 by now.