THE COMPLETE GERMAN COMMAND LIST

[Kuniworth]

okey time for the german command list. I hope we can use this with slight modifications to the leaders.

What names are in the list?

Just like in the "complete soviet command list" the commanders available here is the ones commanding armygroups-heeresgruppe- in the wehrmacht 1939-45. The selection have been made on basis that armygroups are the natural hq unit presented in sc2.

Are the german commander rated higher than the russian ones?

In general yes. This should reflect the better leadership of the wehrmacht in world war 2. However there are some exceptions - some commanders only get a 4 in rating. This is often persons hard to rate and who failed on the battlefield.

Hey some commanders are missing here?

The list should be 99% correct. However there are some exceptions; I've tried to sort out commanders that only held armygroup command for a period shorter than 3 months. They are however listed in the bottom of the list for Hubert to use if he wants to.

Another problem is that the german army used "armeegruppes"(sort of army detachments) very frequently besides the regular hereesgruppes. My intention here have been to ignore those detachements and focus on the regular armygroups to somewhat try to limit the number in the list.

A third problem concerns single commanders. For example luftwaffe-general Löhr(Lohr in english) commanded the heeresgruppe E for 3 years. I deliberately deleted him as that armygroup was stationed to fight partizans in Greece and Yugoslavia and saw very little action.

The famous "general in the snow" -Dietl- who was in charge of Army Lapland is not included either as the forces he command was to small and not really an "heeresgruppe".

Where is Guderian?

Guderian never held armygroup resonsibilities. However he is listed at the bottom along with some other commanders that Hubert might wanna bring into the list.

THE COMPLETE GERMAN COMMAND LIST;

Rommel 8

Rundstedt 7

Bock 6

Kleist 6

Kluge 6

Kuchler 5

Leeb 5

Manstein 9

Model 7

Busch 4

Freissner 4

Harpe 6

Kesselring 8

Lindemann 5

Balck 7

Rendulic 5

Blaskowitz 4

Reinhardt 5

Schorner 5

Weichs 4

Witzleben 5

Wohler 4

Commanders that held army-group command for less than 3 months or commanding sort of a territory more than an army group(for example Falkenhorst - Commander in chief of forces in Norway) therefor not included in list;

Arnim

Weiss

Schulz

List

Tippelskirch

Himmler 3

Vietinghoff-Scheel

Hilpert

Falkenhorst

Reichenau 7

Dietl

Lohr

Heinrici 7

Schutz

Lanz

Tippelskirch

Student

Hausser

Commanders that could be discussed although never holding AG command;

Zeitzler 7

Guderian 8

[ January 09, 2006, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[Kuniworth]

feel free to comment of the ratings...

[JerseyJohn]

Well Done Kuni-!!

I particularly like and agree with the ratings you've assigned.

I think Himmler might even be a candidate for a 2 rating, if such a thing exists.

[Komet-163]

Everything Appears to be Right only the von Rundstedt rating could be debated since he took rostov in '41 but equally lost it and lets not forget The Remagen, but i think you have go it all right here

[SeaMonkey]

Kuni....you'da man, completely agree. If I change my mind, freedom's prerogative, there is always the editor.

[Blashy]

I have to ask, does rating make a big difference in game?

I've never seen the difference myself.

[jon_j_rambo]

How about Goering?

[Victor Reijkersz]

I believe Heinrici should get an 8 instead of a 7. He excelled in the defensive battles he fought in Russia.

[fischkopf]

I would have given Bock a 6 instead of 5.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Victor Reijkersz:

I believe Heinrici should get an 8 instead of a 7. He excelled in the defensive battles he fought in Russia.

Defensive specialist yes but not in the same class as the 8-ranked Zhukov, Kesselring and Rommel.

[ev]

I feel Guderian should be included in the list of German commanders. During operation Barbarosa (1941 advance on Russia) Guderian commanded a Panzer Group made of several Panzer Corps. OK not quite an Army Group, but probably had more men under his command than Rommel ever did, and, certainly had more firepower under his command than most Army Group commanders in WWII.

1941 Panzer Group Guderian had over 1/4 of the German Armored forces in Russia. And, by and far, most of teh German armored forces were in Russia. At the time, Rommel was commanding one Panzer Corps with 2 Panzer and one Panzer Grdr division in North Africa. And Rommel was under the command of both Kesselring and an Italian Field Marshal - though most of the time manage to do things his own way.

[Kuniworth]

*bump*

[Col. Gen. Guderian]

Hey, my whole point of this was to include individual Army and Panzer army commanders. I.e Guderian falls easily into this category as he got his own Panzergruppe. Besides, although he never made Field Marshall, he ended up being the Chief of staff for the whole of OKH, don't you think he deserves a firm place on the list with a hefty 9 rating? Hoth should be up there too as he commanded the 3rd Panzer army for Barbarossa and then the 4th for Operation Blue.

Still, it's a very good list. You've obviously done your homework.

P.S. I'd also give Heinrici an 8 rather than a 7. And yes, he was excellent in the defensive battles.

[Roosevelt45]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

How about Goering?

On one of the other threads the possibility of a naval HQ was discussed, and someone said that if the navy got one the AF will want one too.

Now I don't know if HC is going to include this AF HQ but if he does the germans will be teribbly disadvantaged, since all they had was Goering who was a drunk and an idiot who flew the Luftwaffe straight to its doom.

So are there going to be AF HQ's and if so whose name will be on them?

[SeaMonkey]

My sources say Kesselring was a Luftwaffe commander.

[Kuniworth]

Your sources are absolutely right SeaMonkey. However Goering never held armygroup-responsibilities that's why he is not in this list.

[Panzer Leader]

Did I not see Von Paulus on that list? I would give him a strong '4'.

(Oh and I agree on the ol' Panzer Leader being up there)

[ May 19, 2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Panzer Leader ]

[Desert Dave]

FWIW,

I would agree with those who say that Hurryin' Heinz Guderian SHOULD BE on ANY GS WW2 Important General's roster.

Without him, you may not have had the "blitz" in blitzkrieg. At all. Ever. Wouldn't have happened in Korea, too frigid and unpredictable. Wouldn't have happened in Viet Nam, too jungle closed in.

You needed them... wide open spaces, like the never ending steppes of Russia, to fully appreciate what Guderian and a few others meant for the tank to accomplish.

You cannot merely say that So & So the CoCd (... "chain of command dandy") should be on there BECAUSE he commanded an Army at some point.

Some Field Generals/Marshals commanded their Army in the same sense that... Grand-Ma commanded her weekly sewing circle... with a lot of smiles and delicate gestures, but... not much in the way of die-hard results.

Guderian MUST be in... IMHO, but of course!

... oh yeah, and MINIMUM rating of 8. Maybe a 9.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

My sources say Kesselring was a Luftwaffe commander.

True, in the French Campaign and the Battle of Britain he directly commanded two luftflottes. In 1942 he was Rommel's boss in the Mediteranean -- a Theater Commander! During the Italian Campaign he commanded all the Axis units in Italy and was later sent to France, I believe replacing von Rundstedt.

Kesselring was a fieldmarshall, the equivalent of an American five star general and his AG credentials are beyond being solid.

Regarding von Paulus and some of the others, I don't think using army group status is a particularly good rule of thumb. At one point Paulus, though officially an army commander, had several elements attached to the 6th Army (part of the IVth Panzer Army etc ...) totalling over 250,000 men at one point. Though a staff officer, von Paulus was a colonel-general when he took over the Sixth Army, a four star general. When captured he was promoted to fieldmarshall and Chuikov's officers were reluctant at first to believe they'd captured anyone of so high a rank.

Contrary to popular belief he was a good general but too reluctant to go against Hitler's orders. Additionally, he was thrown too abruptly into the most active command in the war -- at that time -- and should have been put in the field more gradually. I agree with PzGn's strong 4 rating, perhaps even a 5.

I'd make the HQ criteria major formations instead of Army Groups. To me it's splitting hairs over terms, we're talking about 4 and 5 star generals, even the ones who were historically inept still the kind of rank for the HQ position we're discussing. As I said earlier, someone like Guderian is of course on this level, the man was a 4 star general and a great commander in the bargain.

[ May 20, 2004, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

How about this scumbag? (Alfred Jodl)

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo! :eek:

A four star general, a great chief of staff, the real brains behind the German Army in WWII. He wasn't so much -- what you said -- as a robot without a conscience. Occasionally he said he didn't like the idea of slaughtering civilians but his mentality would mainly have been opposed because it used up a lot of ammunition and tied up troops. He was convicted of numerous offenses at Nuremberg but I think he was actually hanged for conspiring to wage aggressive war or something along those lines, the gist being that he helped plan a war of conquest begun without provocation. Needless to say he was also guilty of numerous crimes against humanity.

His boss is in the small B&W photo to the left, Commander of the combined HQ by whatever title, Fieldmarshall Wilhelm Keitel. He was everyone's boss except Hitler. Beside him is Jodl on a better dressed day than the one above, signing one of the surrender documents in 1945. He stood and asked only that the victors be generous and merciful with the German people. None of the Allied generals made a comment. He walked out of the hall accompanied by an admiral who committed suicide shortly afterwards.

Keitel's main qualification was that he looked so natural in a uniform. After a while Hitler had contempt for him but he was useful in holding the other generals in line. Another one with no conscience and another one hanged on pretty much the same grounds as Jodl. In 1946 they shared the same gallows with a trap door that was too narrow and broke the nose of each condemned man as he fell to his death.

Goering, Keitel and Jodl asked to be shot but the request was denied. Goering bit on cyanide shortly before his hanging. By all accounts the two army generals went to their execution in a dignified manner full of military bearing.

One of the others had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, with his pants dragging on his ankles. He was one of the non-military criminals, I believe it was Kaltenbruner but I'm not certain. The others walked calmly up the steps an didn't make a scene.

But this guy is my favorite, Italian Lt General Annibale Bergonzoli

His troops and also the pursuing Aussies called him General Electric Whiskers!

His command was captured at Bardia, Libya, in 1940 but he broke out in a staff car and drove hundreds of miles, always one step ahead of the pursuing Australians. When finally captured the Australians posed with him and his driver, all of them smiling pleasantly. Whiskers shook his head, "I knew I took long with lunch or I should be still on the road ahead of you gentlemen!" War should be more like that, a sort of Tag game, hide and seek sort of thing.

If it ever comes up, I rate Jodl a 6 (ultimate staff officer), Keitel a 2 (ultimate lacky) and Whiskers a solid 1 (the roadrunner), though he's one grade too low to be considered.

[ May 20, 2004, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Sir Jersey --- That was a legendary & informative post, thanks. I don't know my history that well, thanks for filling in some details.

I think the Germans wanted shot instead of hung, more dignifying way to check out.

Hmmm...should SC2 have prisoners?

[Victor Reijkersz]

Couldnt help posting a nice pic of Heinrici

And a link to his last battle:

Battle of the Seelow Heights part I

http://www.onwar.com/articles/f9904.htm

Battle of the Seelow Heights part II

http://www.onwar.com/articles/f9905.htm

And a quote for those of you who won't bother reading the links:

Heinrici, however, was probably the most brilliant defensive tactician to fight in World War II. Over time he had acquired a reputation for being unbreakable in a defensive battle. He commanded 4th Army before Moscow during the Soviet winter offensive of 1941-42 and had managed to hold. For two years he continued to hold against what are now known to have been important Soviet attempts to break through his army. They never did.

regards and consider the 8.

[ May 20, 2004, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Victor Reijkersz ]

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo

Thanks, glad you liked it -- agreed about hanging, the Germans felt it was only for spies and sabateurs / partisans.

Victor

Terrific post, well stated without stretching the point and obviously a lot of us enjoy seeing a picture or two, that one is a great size.

[Curry]

Cornelius Ryan favored Heinrici very well in his book "The last battle" (The battle for Berlin).

Not only did he have to fight the Russians but he also had to fight the German high command at times.

He would be a defensive specialist as Kuni stated. I hope SCII has a dual rating of denfensive and offensive ratings for leaders. Then someone like Heinrici would get his due.

[ May 21, 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Curry ]