Z-Plan Discussion

[JerseyJohn]

I thought it would be interesting to discuss this topic in relation to the SC-2 scenario editor and also as an historical possibility that didn't happen -- perhaps because Hitler didn't think he'd live past 1946 and decided to rush things during the late summer of 1939.

During 1938-39 Hitler asked his generals and admirals what they wanted in the way of ideal production during the coming years. He assured all of them that Germany would not be going to war till at least late 1941.

After discussing their goals with them he began making promises to each and this stage of Third Reich armament plans has come to be known as the Z-Plan. Its main commitment was to the navy.

The most popular Mod I created in the SC-1 days was The Z Plan Scenario, which generated a tournament (organized by my friend disorder) that went several rounds. Aside from the mod, this scenario generated a lot of interest and discussion and, after piddling around a bit with the editor, I’m about ready to start on an SC-2 version.

The Z-Plan is generally thought of as being completed as early as 1942 and as late as 1946, so I’m planning to create three versions: 1942, 1944, and 1946.

-- After finishing Z-1946 I’m planning a new version of The Brest-Litovsk Aftermath.

Z Plan Scenarios

Though accounts vary, plans were on the boards for two special classes of war ships:

H-Class Battleship

>> Hindenburg, Ludendorff, Fredrick the Great, and Schleiffen. There may have been two others, but I’m not certain. The first two vessels were actually under construction when the war began. They were later used for the Atlantic Wall batteries.

>>>> Features: Same design as Bismarck and Tirpitz but with 16” main guns replacing the 15” on those ships. They were planned as slightly larger in all respects than their predecessors, and probably slightly faster, about 32-33 knots full speed to the 30 knots of Germany’s pair of famous BBs.

Commerce Raiding Armored Cruisers:

These were intended to replace the obsolete Deutschland Class ships constructed under the Weimar Republic, Deutschland (renamed Lutzow at wars’ start) Admiral Graf Spee, and Admiral Sheer. The original ships were approximately 8,000 tons displacement, carried six 11” main guns, and had a top speed of 28 knots. When first built they were capable of outrunning all the world’s battleships (but not the battle cruisers) and the idea was they could outrun anything they couldn’t outgun. By 1939 that was no longer true, but they could still have been useful weapons, though after the loss of Graf Spee they were kept in Baltic and North Sea Ports. They were popularly known as Pocket Battleships and designated Armored Cruisers by Germany.

>Z-Plan Replacement:

Three ships of light displacement, thin armor, top speed in the 34-35 knot range, carrying six 15” guns. How they were to be used isn’t very clear in my mind as the guns were much larger than needed for sinking merchant ships. My guess is they would have been sent out in hunter groups with light cruisers, the armored cruisers to sink or scatter a convoy’s escort with the light cruisers moving in to sink the merchantmen, whose remnants, scattered and unprotected, could later have been hunted down by U-boats. This would have been a much more deadly combination than anything used during the war by Germany: a true convoy killing system.

Proposed ships: Barbarossa, Wallenstein, and Blucher (?).

>> >>

Naturally there would be things developing and changing in other nations that would counter the effectiveness of Germany’s program, but the basic idea is that German war preparations would proceed more quickly than counter measures in the democratic nations. Meanwhile, in the USSR, Stalin was still struggling to put the nation back in order after his purges, both military and civilian.

Will elaborate on other ideas later in this thread.

[SeaMonkey]

According to some of my info the long term Z build plan was to be complete in 47 with

6 Type H BB

4 Bismark class BB

3 Pocket, type Deutschland BB converted from Scheer, Spee, and Deutschland.

I've seen reference for upgrades to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau to put them in the pocket BB class.

12 Type P BC

2 full size CV and 6 smaller types(CVL)

24 type M CL (5 of the Koln and Lepzig class)

36 Scout cruisers ???

70 DD

162 SS (Atlantic capable)

60 SS coastal variety

Aproximately 100 torpedo and special purpose Eboats. (Mowe and Wolf class).

Source: Bekker, C. "Hitler's Naval War".

Seems pretty ambitious.....possible by 47???

Oh and JJ, I have the schedule of completion for each year, 39 through 47.

[ February 27, 2007, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[xwormwood]

Always a good side to read

[jon_j_rambo]

Okay, fair enough. How about the H-Plan, where the USA drops a Hydrogen on Munich?

[JerseyJohn]

xwormwood,

Thanks for the link. As always, you've provided some very interesting informaion.

SeaMonkey,

Thanks for the info and the source, I'll looks very interesting and I'm goig to look it up.

Present Thoughts:

I've also read those projections, earlier, and am very skeptical, especially regarding the aircraft carriers, about Germany's ability to build such a fleet unless it had already conquered France and was able to switch it's attention to the Blue Water Navy plan, which was to incorporporate the hulls and partially built French warships, launched from Atlantic ports.

Obstacles -- for one thing, Goering and Raeder were rivals. The navy, quite reasonably, wanted it's own naval air arm and Goering refused. All through WWII the aviators who flew the catapult recon aircraft were Luftwaffe and not Kriegsmarine! There didn't seem to be major problems while it was on so a scale, but I don't think ocean going aircraft carriers would have functioned very well with such a divided command structure. Also, there's the difference between training aviators and training pilots: landing on a carrier deck requires special skills that the Germans just weren't preparing for.

Germany had no functional aircraft carriers, not even the two small carriers that were laid down in 1936, The Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser, both of which appear to have been afloat in 1940, but beyond that I've found it very hard to find any reliable information on what was done with them during the war. Were Luftwaffe pilots learning to land and take off from the decks of these two anchored, incomplete, vessels?

My opinion on these Z-Plan naval figures is that Hitler was telling Raeder what he wanted to hear. Meanwhile, after starting construction of the two sister-ship aircraft carriers (designed to carry about 40 planes each), Hitler shifted gears and allotted resources to Doenitz submarine program that, earlier, were supposed to be directed to the carriers.

The Raeder-Doenitz differences seriously handicapped German naval plans. And Goerings refusal to support a naval air arm practically doomed the aviator program.

So, assuming Germany isn't at war in 1939-40, how does the navy go about making up for all the lost aviation experience that Britain, France, Japan and the United States achieved from the 1920s through the 1930s?

-- Perhaps as part of it's alliance with Japan, but I don't know of such exchanges taking place. It wasn't till well into the war, for example, that Germany began helping the Japanese to develop radar technology. And it never did so for Italy, in both cases costing their allies dearly in battles the British and Americans dominated by night.

Conclusion:

I don't think the German Navy would have received even a sizable fraction of that promised dream fleet.

-- But what part would it have been given?

My guess is the four H-Class BBs for sure.

>I don't believe any more Bismarck Class BBs would have been built.

The three new style Barbarossa Class Pocket Battleships, for certain.

>Sharnhorst and Gneisnau would have been refitted with 15" main guns, probably their for and aft turrets changed to 2x15" replacing the 3x11" configuration. I don't think that would have affected their speed, so they'd have become true battle cruisers instead the heavy low punch ships they actually were (11" guns were ridiculously small for ships their size).

>The ocean going heavy destroyers and light cruisers -- to me those would have been the most important part of the whole naval program! I believe they'd have been built, and much more valuable in commerce raiding than the really big ships.

The above construction would have been completed by 1943 or, perhaps, even 1942.

Okay, more to come as we go along.

These scenarios should be made as a group project, with all of us determining what would or wouldn't go into it. I think that's already, obviously the turn it's taking, and I'm glad it is, not only because of all the specific speulation involved, but also I'll need to find out how to do specific tasks in the editor in order to get the dates and scripts right.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Okay, fair enough. How about the H-Plan, where the USA drops a Hydrogen on Munich?

-- You must be talking about 1953, and I believe the intended target was Moscow.

[SeaMonkey]

OK JJ, I understand your real world concept about what the Fuhrer would have provided and that he could have been misleading Raeder.

There is also what Germany was truly capable of deploying through its industrial endeavors.

But the Fuhrer is not in charge...you are. Is this not a "what if"?

Just suppose, if this is a "what if", that we examine what Raeder was really after, answers to Wegener's "dead angle" and the new long legged German Navy's strategy of stretching the Royal Navy, creating exploitable opportunities for the surface forces and subsequent cleanup by the subsurface forces.

Suppose you create Raeder's Z-Plan?

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey

I think the primary problem was replenishment and repair.

This was demonstrated by Graf Spee in 1939. After fighting off three British cruisers in the River Plat it put in for repairs and was told they had to be completed in -- 24 hours? Not sure what the time limit was, but I remember there was no way they could have been accomplished. We all know the rest of the story about how it's captain, Langsdorff, was misled by bogus radio messages into thinking an entire British fleet was waiting for him to leave port, instead of only two battered cruisers with 6" main guns. So he scuttled his still very functional warship (in shallow water, allowing the Brits to board it's hulk and remove the advanced gunnery radar), and he returned to port, committing suicide shortly afterward.

The British and French, on the other hand, had numerous stations all over the Atlantic, north and south, where they could put in for repairs and resupply.

That's a vital aspect that Germany never managed to overcome, not even after they had the French Atlantic ports. It's really the main reason Germany wanted Spain to join the Axis, so it would have Spanish harbors, both in Iberia and other locations, to use as naval bases. And, of course, taking Gibraltar would also have been a huge help -- perhaps of decisive importance when combined with the greatly expanded German naval base capacity.

-- Assuming Germany wouldn't have gotten countries like Montevideo to join the Axis, the French Atlantic basis were vital. No German surface campaign could have succeeded if every raid needed to start and finish in either Norway or Germany.

So Germany's naval war is planned to get in gear with the conquest of France.

The ships need to have range. -- Bismarck, Tirpitz and the armored cruisers had the sort of range that American and Japanese warships had in the Pacific.

Then they need to have speed. Bismarck proved that she was just slow enough to be effectively shadowed by British cruisers with a top speed of 33 knots, same as the Prinz Eugen. Battleships, especially if they were part of a major task force and not just accompanied by a single heavy cruiser, might well have been able to make their way through The Denmark Straights, past Iceland and Greenland, into the Atlantic, for a raid and then a mad dash to France. But, really, the more practical plan was to base every foray from a French port. Which, of course, would leave them vulnerable to stalking submarines waiting in the Bay of Biscay. Germany didn't have sonar, so that was a problem.

In short, my preferance would have been the 34 knot Barbarossa Class Pocket Battleships accompanied by heavy destroyers and light cruisers. Shadowing such a task force, assuming it could have been done, would have been extremely dangerous as, at any moment, they could have wheeled and ambushed their pursuers.

The H-Class battleships would have been good, but of little use against a Royal Navy bristling with it's own capital ships. Assuming the German big ships got to the open sea and won a major battle, they still needed to return to a friendly base, probably badly damaged, before being pounced on a second, and fresh, British attacking force.

-- It's a similar case to WWI, where Germany had a magnificent, and totally useless fleet, that made several sweeps, and fought only one battle during the entire war -- an indecisive bloodbath that the British were much more able to recover from than Germany.

Russia, in the Cold War, learned the lesson that Germany failed to learn after WWI. Instead of trying to match American aircraft carrier production, it built a huge number of very deadly smaller ships, much less valuable than the super carriers they were designed to stalk, and sink.

-- I think that's what Germany needed in WWII. A surface fleet of fast hard hitting ships with a long range, able to easily move past British squadrons of larger ships sent out to catch them.

[Liam]

Jersey John:

The fact that Germany could ever compete at Sea and on Land is not possible by WW2 standards. Even in WW1 she had bases around the World to use as you stated, they were gone by WW2. So operations were limited. She had a lot of resources tied up on other places. Considering the #2 man in Germany was an Air Marshall I assume that is why more resources went into the Airforce. I do not think a Surface Fleet of Big Bristling Guns to go out and duke it out vs the RN was ever a practical idea. The Old British Guard just had more ships and was more oriented toward Naval Warfare on the all. Even in WW1 when Germany attempted to match the RN it ended badly for Germany, technically she gained nothing from Jutland.

Germany's best bet for WW2 is what any SC2 player does in reality. Hit and Run Tactics at best, using the Airforce and Long Range Bombers to Rape England's Resources. Forget fighting the RN, raid it's convoys to death... Fast, small effective ships as you mentioned the Soviets use. I think that More U-Boats and less Surface ships would have been a better investment. Plus more Raiding Vessels that were highly effective in WW1 and WW2 employed by German Forces in the Pacific, Indian Ocean and Atlantic. Not so by WW2, only in the MainBody North and South Atlantic...

If she chose to engage the Royal Navy, I think that Mini-Subs, Aircraft and Hit and Run Torpedo missions would have been best. In SC2 Terms, several GLR Cruisers, and several Level2 or 3 Subs... That in Game Terms with a Bomber can spell the death of the Royal Navy and she must researsh ASW tech to protect herself, that and GLR herself.

you can perform this, but when you're done, the 2000 MPPs or even 3000 to do it will cost you. That is what would work for Barbarossa, and taking England gives a huge Jump in readiness. So the move has to be decisive and you have to be lucky. It's almost better to avoid the RN altogether and attempt to take Territory where it is not. Killing it in 1940 isn't very practical and without luck near impossible. Russia comes first... This is the way of history and the doctrine of the game unless the UK player has arranged his forces poorly.

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

SeaMonkey

I think the primary problem was replenishment and repair.

This was demonstrated by Graf Spee in 1939. After fighting off three British cruisers in the River Plat it put in for repairs and was told they had to be completed in -- 24 hours? Not sure what the time limit was, but I remember there was no way they could have been accomplished. We all know the rest of the story about how it's captain, Langsdorff, was misled by bogus radio messages into thinking an entire British fleet was waiting for him to leave port, instead of only two battered cruisers with 6" main guns. So he scuttled his still very functional warship (in shallow water, allowing the Brits to board it's hulk and remove the advanced gunnery radar), and he returned to port, committing suicide shortly afterward.

The British and French, on the other hand, had numerous stations all over the Atlantic, north and south, where they could put in for repairs and resupply.

That's a vital aspect that Germany never managed to overcome, not even after they had the French Atlantic ports. It's really the main reason Germany wanted Spain to join the Axis, so it would have Spanish harbors, both in Iberia and other locations, to use as naval bases. And, of course, taking Gibraltar would also have been a huge help -- perhaps of decisive importance when combined with the greatly expanded German naval base capacity.

-- Assuming Germany wouldn't have gotten countries like Montevideo to join the Axis, the French Atlantic basis were vital. No German surface campaign could have succeeded if every raid needed to start and finish in either Norway or Germany.

So Germany's naval war is planned to get in gear with the conquest of France.

The ships need to have range. -- Bismarck, Tirpitz and the armored cruisers had the sort of range that American and Japanese warships had in the Pacific.

Then they need to have speed. Bismarck proved that she was just slow enough to be effectively shadowed by British cruisers with a top speed of 33 knots, same as the Prinz Eugen. Battleships, especially if they were part of a major task force and not just accompanied by a single heavy cruiser, might well have been able to make their way through The Denmark Straights, past Iceland and Greenland, into the Atlantic, for a raid and then a mad dash to France. But, really, the more practical plan was to base every foray from a French port. Which, of course, would leave them vulnerable to stalking submarines waiting in the Bay of Biscay. Germany didn't have sonar, so that was a problem.

In short, my preferance would have been the 34 knot Barbarossa Class Pocket Battleships accompanied by heavy destroyers and light cruisers. Shadowing such a task force, assuming it could have been done, would have been extremely dangerous as, at any moment, they could have wheeled and ambushed their pursuers.

The H-Class battleships would have been good, but of little use against a Royal Navy bristling with it's own capital ships. Assuming the German big ships got to the open sea and won a major battle, they still needed to return to a friendly base, probably badly damaged, before being pounced on a second, and fresh, British attacking force.

-- It's a similar case to WWI, where Germany had a magnificent, and totally useless fleet, that made several sweeps, and fought only one battle during the entire war -- an indecisive bloodbath that the British were much more able to recover from than Germany.

Russia, in the Cold War, learned the lesson that Germany failed to learn after WWI. Instead of trying to match American aircraft carrier production, it built a huge number of very deadly smaller ships, much less valuable than the super carriers they were designed to stalk, and sink.

-- I think that's what Germany needed in WWII. A surface fleet of fast hard hitting ships with a long range, able to easily move past British squadrons of larger ships sent out to catch them.

[SeaMonkey]

Exactly it JJ, the premise for the panzershiffes was kill what was weaker and run from stronger.

The Graf Spee's fuel separator's steam generator was hit by an Exeter 8" shell, a bad design not being located under the armored deck. Still if the design had been corrected the Spee would've had a 15,000 nautical mile cruising range at 19 knots.

Now we know those diesel engines needed a little tweaking, but also realize the germans were making strides in steam propulsion.

The supply at sea situation had really been addressed just not enhanced. Germany had 6 Dithmarschen class supply ships with a range of 12,500 miles cruising at 15 knots and could deliver 9000 tons of fuel, 400 tons of lube, ammo, parts, provisions and were aptly armed to defend themselves. They could run at flank speed of 22 knots and the Kriegsmarine had developed a 150 ton/hr transfer rate of fuel while cruising at 17 knots. Not to shabby.

See, the jist of the situation is germany was on the right track, but just didn't apply the required emphasis. That's where your Z-Plan comes into play, you elaborate the naval efforts and the required time for development before pushing the button.

Now, Mein Fuhrer, give Admiral Raeder what he wants.

[ February 27, 2007, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[JerseyJohn]

Liam,

We're in complete agreement. If I can only see two naval roles for Germany: 1 -- North Sea and Baltic Sea operations and -- 2 -- Commerce raiding against UK lifelines. I don't think Germany had any future in building Bismarcks or Hindenburg battleships.

My Z-Plan would have been toward submarines at sea, jet planes in the air and the most powerful army on earth, one designed to quickly conquer all of mainland Europe. Phase two wouldn't be the conquest of the UK so much as it's strangulation.

The main difference between a WWI and a WWII naval strategy is the progress from coal burning vessels to oil burners, with their vastly improved speed and trans Atlantic range. So, if Germany were able to move a large force of very powerful surface vessels around the North Atlantic to bases in France, they might well have worked toward that phase two strangulation strategy we were discussing.

SeaMonkey,

We're on the same wavelength Admiral Raeder, I mean, uh, SM.

So, now Hitler has put on tranquillizers by quack Dr Morell, instead of uppers, and the decision is whether the scenario should follow what's been written about Hitler's Z-Plan -- which I think is not what would have happened if Germany spent three more years preparing for war -- or to follow what we would have done if such an opportunity had been placed in our own hands.

I opt for a compromise:

We make the four H-Class BBs and the three Barbarossa Class Pocket Battleships -- though, as far as we know, we don't have a way of creating units in the game with the desired characteristics, so it translates to four more battleships and, representing all the rest of the plan, say five cruisers and one aircraft carrier to represent Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser made operational and combined into a single division.

So much for the Kreigsmarine, I don't think additional U-boat units would have been justified with those surface ships having taken up the peacetime naval construction.

Basing this on the standard 1939 Fall Weiss Mod, I've changed the dates to 1942-1951.

-->1942 Bismarck, Tirpitz, Cruiser (Graf Spee) and add 1 aircraft carrier unit, combined Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser. all completed and on station in the Baltic Sea.

1942 Z-Plan

> 1 BB completed in 2 months, 1 ready in six months, 1 in 9 months and 1 in 15 months.

1 Cruiser completed in 2 months, 1 in 3, 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 months.

Army: All units fully upgraded. 1 new army on Polish border, 1 army added in 2 months (along with other units in 1939 FW Quay) HQ Leeb added near Rhine.

Air Force: Jets level 2, LR level 1, II Air Fleet added near Polish border.

1 Rocket unit added near Rhine.

Research: advances in Long Range, Advanced Air Craft, Anti-Aircraft Radar, Rockets and Infantry weapons. Heavy Tanks remain the same as, without a war there wouldn't have been any reason to suppose the panzer doctrine needed improvement and improvements in the tanks.

-- Foreign Relations

No war in 1940 means FDR is not elected to a third term. U. S. chance of involvement drops to 0%

Three years to recover from his Civil War, Franco is more likely to join Axis, shift of +20% in favor of Germany.

USSR, presumably further alienated by Britain and France, drops to 0% also.

Italy: overall improvements and better infrastructure and industrial production, which is the direction Mussolini was heading toward before the start of war -- which he was not told about prior to the invasion of Poland.

France: Builds two more Maginot tiles moving west along the Belgian border.

Britain: Changes to be discussed.

-- More ideas after further discussion.

[jon_j_rambo]

Hmmm, I thought the #2 man was Henrick Himmler, the ReichsFuherer or something? Apparently, beyond being a Devil, he was a turd of a man. I'm sure he wanted some cash.

[JerseyJohn]

Actually, up to the start of the war the second man was Rudolf Hoess, but he faded quickly when the fighting started.

Goering became the #2 man after the start of the war and #3 was probably Himmler, but by 1941 Himmler was definitely the third man, gradually eclipsing Goering.

Shortly before the end of the war Goering sent a message asking Hitler, who was in the bunker in Berlin, whether he should start running things. Hitler flew into a fit and demoted him to traitor and ordered him arrested and shot. Goering went into hiding and later surrendered.

Himmler, meanwhile, dropped in Hitler's view when he revealed himself to be a putz of a general. Goebbles remained in the bunker with his master, as did Borman. Spear paid a final visit and left, soon to be captured by the Western Allies. Ribbentrop and most of the rest of the old crowd were hiding in basements.

So, in the end, Admiral Doenitz, the least likely of all, became Hitler's #2 man, and his only successor.

-- Truth is, Hitler never wanted anyone to be a clear heir, not even when he named Goering, who was kept under control so he wouldn't be likely to stage a coups, even if he'd been inclined to, which he wasn't.

[Retributar]

The "Z-Plan" doesn't sound like a 'Wee-Plan' to me!.

An intriguing project you have in mind "Jersey John"!. I hope that the 'best of the best' idea's make it into your 'Mod'!.

My personal take on the German situation, is that any visible German surface ship's would be at the mercy of Allied Sea Might!, and so would be readily doomed to eventual demise. [im not a Naval Buff, and neither do i understand these specific matter's very well_Im just venturing my own uneducated opinion]. If i was in charge of German Naval Programme's, i would personally go 'Full-Tilt' on advanced Submarine's that would hopefully be designed to able to evade Sonar Detection, be able to Stay Underwater longer, have extended operating range, and finally...be able to move swifter when required!.

[arado234]

Retributar is right.If germanys plan was to try and contest the british navy,the only hope they had was with uboats.British capital ships combined with their carrier force would have destroyed them.Just think of how many uboats that would have been built if all that material & time was spent on mainly uboats.Doenitz may well have had the 300 uboats he clamied he needed to starve england.

[arado234]

One more thing.Remember ultra.German ships would have been found.

[Blashy]

All I really know about zplan is that if Hitler had waited until 1941 he would have had 300+ subs at his disposal at the start of the war, not 56 of which only about 1 third were out at anytime.

Still, more time for Germany means more time for the other side as well.

[Lars]

Z-Plan is an interesting scenario, but let's remember it is almost a complete fantasy for Germany, not to mention the entirely wrong strategy, given hindsight, unless you're willing to wait til '46-'48 to kick things off.

But, the most important thing to remember is UK is not going to be sitting on their hands watching new uberBB's rolling off the line. Better do a little research into what their build plans were and adjust accordingly.

[SeaMonkey]

I want you guys that are really interested in the conceptual beginning of the Z-plan to Google, NWCR article, Autumn 2005: Hansen.

Not long, but very insightful, the idea, the strategy, the way it should have unfolded.

[Liam]

I still see that a Z-plan is not practical without a more friendly Hitler-Stalin Relationship. I would like more research into what Stalin's longterm plans were, good idea when USSR will invade Germany!

Navy's are EXPENSIVE, they suck resources out of a nation.. What is the point of taking out England? Starving it far more effective but noone listened to the U-Boat concept

I heard Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine had a poor relationship

too much division in the Reich, infighting. Wasteful, a Navy is wasteful, every ounce of resources could be converted to more Land Power and Air Power. It is my firm believe that the Royal Navy could be destroyed by land based aircraft as in SC1 enough to get Germany in. Germany wasn't like Japan though, and wasn't oriented toward this type of warfare.

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks SeaMonkey, Liam, Retributor, Lars, Blashy, arado234.

I agree with everyone who said Germany's ability to defeat Great Britain (and France) in a naval war was slim, at best, and also that, given her committment to maintain a very strong army and air force, the country couldn't have also supported a gigantic navy. And, as Liam said, what point would there have been to it? It would have made some sense much later, after conquering both Britain and France and expanding into all of European Russia, at which point a huge and powerful Atlantic fleet would have helped Germany to extend it's zone of influence into South America. But what point would there be in building that huge fleet before there was a need for it? None.

And, as Liam pointed out, the USSR would have been Germany's first problem, not the UK. Lars makes a good point about British counter moves, which is why I left Britain's progress between 1939 and 42 for later discussion.

I agree, in part, with Retributor, that German surface ships would have too vulnerable to Allied counter action. But the variable is conquering France and having those Atlantic ports. The naval war would doubtlessly have been different if Germany had gotten Bismarck and Tirpitz around to operate out of Brest and Bordeaux in combination with Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eurgen while the two remaining pocket battleships and other heavy cruisers operated out of Norway. This certainly would have stretched British resources very thin and helped the U-Boats in their convoy breaking.

Britain, in my view, wouldn't have been able to expand their navy as quickly as Germany could have created it's own. During the war Britain laid down and completed only one battleship, while losing several others. Given a few more years of peace I think they'd have placed the emphasis on replacing the old Queen Elizabeth / Barham Class of BBs with the King George the Fith types, gradually easing into the heavier Lion Class.

To me a lot of Hitler's naval talk was double edged. First, Germany had to have a much larger navy than it had in 1938-39. It needed several more BBs, Bismarck and Tirpitz, added to Scharnhorst, Gneisnau and the four heavy cruisers filled a gap, with the soon to be added Hindenburg Class of four sister ships bringing Germany up to the point of a credible navy. There was a move toward aircraft carriers, but Goering stupidly let his petty ego derail that program. Hitler didn't intervene, probably not understanding the basic problem and, more likely, welcoming the rift as it gave him reason to not proceed with those large aircraft carriers he'd promised Raeder.

End of Part One --

[SeaMonkey]

Yeah but Liam, Fuhrer JJ is in charge this time and God knows he's nowhere as inept as Hitler was.

Not only that, he has the benefit of hindsight. There's nothing about Z-Plan that couldn't have really taken place given the proper orientation.

There could have been time to get to at least 42, maybe further, before USSR entered the fray. I have complete confidence in JJ appointing the proper people to the appropriate positions to maximize his Reich potential.

There are many twists and turns that road of fate takes us down, the alternative possibilities are intangibles, no one can say for sure that a different decision wouldn't have led to a vastly different set of circumstances.

Go watch "The Butterfly Effect".

[SeaMonkey]

Look guys we can theorize, punctuate, hypothesize, and conclude all we want, but the proof is in the pudding.

What is this scenario for? OK, fun first, but there is no reason why it can provide an accurate simulation of what might have been.

Let's let JJ create it and we can play it and find our own conclusions as an educational romp through history.

Preconceived notions only serve to damage the median of objectivity. Apply the scientific method and allow it to lead us to a consensus.

[JerseyJohn]

Part Two --

I think Blashy brought up an interesting point regarding 1941. That seems to be the year he really planned to enter upon a major war, not 1939. The only reason he pushed his plans up two years is that Ribbentrop convinced him Britain and France, even if they initially declared war, wouldn't follow through over Poland, if they knew the USSR and Germany were in the same camp, even if not actual allies.

That was the year he gave Italy, and the target Mussolini was preparing for.

So, the first Mod will be the 1941 Zee Plan, which will use the ideas we've bandied about here instead of trying to follow the Z-Plan Hitler laid out to Raeder and the generals in 1938-39.

Jet Aircraft

The pioneer in this area was Great Britain, having developed the first jet engine in 1928, but it was quickly concluded that such devices were too heavy to be functional in aircraft, and a little was done in the field during the following decade.

Germany actually had a flying jet prototype in the spring of 1939. Goering, Udet and Milch were unimpressed with it's potential as a fighting aircraft because they thought it too fast and with little maneuverability. So, told to prepare for an all out war in the near future, they put the project on hold in favor of prop designs. The did this with such reckless abandon that, when they returned to jet designs, many of the engineers involved were serving on the Russian Front! Add to this Hitler's folly in demanding the ready for production jet fighter be altered in order to carry bombs -- pushing the program back an additional year.

Britain, meanwhile, slogged along with a jet fighter program but didn't give it much support till 1944 when German jet fighters and rocket aircraft began shooting down bombers. They had some of their own in the air by wars' end, using them to intercept V-1s, but there was never an actual dog fight between the opposing jets of the time. After the war, pilots who flew the German jet fighters and British jet fighter were unanimous in saying the Germans were far ahead.

The United States began developing it's own jet fighter in 1940 but later abandoned the project in favor of working on British, and later captured German, designs.

Italy did work on jet engines, but not on creating a prototype.

As far as I know those were the only countries -- other than Japan at the very end working on German designs -- that were developing jet aircraft technology during WWII.

-- So, in the 1941 Zee Plan scenario, I'd assign Germany advanced aircraft L=2, UK L=1 with long range aircraft =1

Rockets

All nations had rocketeers during the 1920s and 30s, but only two nations, Germany and the USSR, looked at them as potential weapons, despite the United States having Robert Goddard, whose work was studied in detail by both the German and Soviet rocket scientists.

The German program was well funded and making real strides forward even as early as 1940, though the actual weapons weren't manufactured till much later in the war.

The Soviet program was underfunded and their best rocket designer was sent to a gulag on an accusation from his assistant! He was not released till after the Soviets learned about Germany's launching of V-1s and V-2s on Britain.

So, for the 1941 war, I'd give Germany Rocket=3 and no one else having any war related development.

-- This, in part, would be to counter the French extension of the Maginot Line by two tiles.

To Be Continued. -- All comments and suggestions welcome, of course. This is really a group project.

[JerseyJohn]

Brother SeaMonkey,

Appreciated.

I was writing my posts here when your two posts went up.

I'll do my best with it while paying close attention to the added ideas yourself and our other friends have to offer on this.