Ultimatums and peace treaties.

[Roosevelt45(the 2nd)]

Will we be able to retreat out of a war?

e.g.:I invade Greece as the axis while the UK hasn't joined the war yet but they send me a ultimatum(deadline,will this be included in the diplomatic system?)to retreat my troops from greek territory within 3 turns or have a British DOW on my desk on the 4th.Will I then be able to retreat my troops and invalidate my DOW?

Of course Greece would be way more pro-allies then but at that time it will stay neutral.

Also, will we be able to send and receive propositions of peace?

[Lars]

I doubt it. Once you make the DOW, you're in it.

Wouldn't be much of a wargame if we all declared peace.

[Roosevelt45(the 2nd)]

True..

But still, it would be an interresting turn to the game if you could make peace with the UK after 1940 or if you find out that your ally has been negotiating peace terms with the enemy.

And this way Romania and Italy,who not only made peace with the allies but joined them too, could be better simulated in the game.

[Edwin P.]

Or allow peace but the Aggressor has to pay for it in some fashion and the other party may or may not accept it.

Example: Russia offers Finland Peace and 300MPP. If Finland accepts and returns to neutrality all foreign units leave Finland, Russia loses 300MPP.

Example: Italy offers Yugoslavian partisans peace and 300MPP. Yugoslavia accepts and returns to neutrality. All foreign units leave Yugoslavia and Italy loses 300MPP.

Example: Germany offers UK Peace. UK Requests Liberation of France, Denmark, Low Countries, Nordic Countries, Yugoslavia, Greece and Egypt (if Conquered). If UK accepts each of these nations and the UK return to neutrality and Germany is free to focus on the war against Russia. Of course, this was Russia's greatest fear. That the UK would make peace with Germany and Germany would be free to focus all of its might against Russia.

Implementing this would be simple. Include a Peace Offer button on the European Map screen. Countries open to a peace offer are highlighted (Finland, Yugoslavia, UK) It costs 1 Diplomatic Chit to make the offer and find out what the target nation demands in exchange for a peace agreement. At that point the player can accept or reject it.

PS: If the allies asks for peace with Italy the Italians might ask for the UK's Surrender and if the German's ask for peace with the US the US may ask for Germany's surrender OR 2000 MPP which they will give to the Russians and the British.

[ June 28, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Lars]

Umm, sounds nice, but in a multi-player game, I doubt the UK player (or any player) is going to be willing to accept and sit and twiddle his thumbs for the rest of the game.

It might be an option for playing against the AI, but I'm not sure if it's worth the time to implement.

[Night]

Lars, just because peace is made doesn't mean it has to stay for the whole game.

I like this idea, but it should have a limit to how long before you can rejoin war against the same country you had peace with. In Civ3 they have this system (even though you could break it at a great diplomatic cost) and i'm sure the same could be done in SC2

[Roosevelt45(the 2nd)]

Edwin, that was exactly what I had in mind.

Only the demands of the UK for peace you named are a bit high.

I would say:

Germany pays the UK 500 MPP's, gives them all of their territory back,retreats all naval units from the North sea and the Atlantic, and signs a non-aggression pact with a few minors(Greece,Yugoslavia,..).

[Lars]

But the UK would never have accepted that. And the Germans were never going to offer that much anyway. Lets not deal in to much fantasy here. Look at the examples.

Greece? Italy is at war with Britain and France from when it enters. Might as well take Greece as well there's not much Britain can do about it. Yugoslavia, same deal. I wouldn't pay MPPs for peace when I can make them by invading.

Finland. Why the heck would the German player deal Finland out of it? A back door to Leningrad, some troops, and a threat to the Russian rear. Worth way more than almost anything the Russians would have to give up.

Really guys, in game terms, why would anyone offer peace terms or accept them? We all know the score, this is a game of world domination. Once you're in, you're in till your opponent is crushed.

[Edwin P.]

Russia might offer Finland peace to free the units guarding the Finish border and Finland, not Germany, might accept. Of course the Finnish demand for compensation will limit Russia's ability to reinforce its own troops for one turn, but they gain the use of the troops guarding the Finnish border.

The Axis might offer peace to Yugoslavia as it would free up the Garrison units assigned to pacify this country. The Yugoslavians, might accept to free their nation of Axis troops. Of course the compensation offered 300 MPP is just slightly less than the cost of building 3 new corps 375MPP.

In my view both of these actions are realistic alternatives and are relatively balanced in terms of their affect on game play.

Why would the Axis offer peace to Greece? They do not have partisans and don't tie down Axis forces.

[ June 28, 2004, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Lars]

Well, the Germans might offer the Russians all of Yugoslavia, Greece and a free hand with Turkey in order to secure their back while they crush Britain.

But now we're playing a very different game.

Shall I dig out my old Diplomacy boardgame and we have a go?

[Raven25]

An interesting idea, but very unrealistic. Such treaties where a large country would defend others didn't happen in the modern age until after WW2. I am of course speaking of the formation of the United Nations and NATO. In WW2 a country could do pretty much whatever they wanted without having to fear retribution from a coalition of powerful countries, and that's why Germany invaded Poland (nobody gave a rat's ass if Germany was violating the Versailles treaty because they didn't want to be the one to say stop and get their asses whooped).

[Roosevelt45(the 2nd)]

Just to set things straight.

Greece was just an example,I could just as well have said Turkey or Spain.

Raven25,

you're joking, right?

already in WW1 Russia(the large country)had a treaty with Serbia to protect them from Austria-Hungary.

And I'm sure you've heard of the league of nations before.Agreed they had little or no influence on countries but I still think it is wrong to say there were no organizations at all.

And what about the commonwealth?

I also think you chose a very bad example, after all the invasion of Poland did trigger the war.

[Exel]

You should definitely be able to sue for peace. The war was total only between the majors, and for the western Allies the war became total only after the Atlantic conference or whatever it was called in English. Finland, Bulgaria, Italy all made peace (or surrendered) before total conquest, and there should be a chance of Britain and even Soviet Union signing peace with Germany without unconditional surrender.