The Convoy Map - or - "Why does the Axis get more info from it than the Allies?"

[Lars]

First off, only trying to help make improvements, so don't get all in a snit.

When playing as Allies the naval turn goes something like this,

1. Go to War Map.

2. Flip to Convoy Map to see routes.

3. Back to War Map to find ship locations.

4. Back to game map and move first ship to hopefully close to the convoy route.

5. Back to War Map, then on to Convoy Map, then flip back and forth with War Map to see if you're near it.

6. Back to game map, move next ship.

7. Repeat ad nauseum.

It's almost as bad for the Axis, but at least the location of the U-boats show up on the Convoy Map.

The ideal solution would of course be to have the convoy routes on the game map, tied to Intel Tech for Axis display, and randomly moving over time, as was discussed earlier in a different thread.

However, until then, for a quick fix, please have Allied ships show up on the Convoy Map and save us some button clicking.

And for either player, spotted enemy shipping and air units should show up too.

[Blashy]

Yep, this has already being discussed to make it more user friendly.

I'm not saying anything about it being implemented as I am NOT Hubert.

Just stating that we've informed Hubert of this situation some time ago.

For me, the convoy lanes should show up on the main map for Allies, it is their convoy routes after all. The Axis it should not, finding the sweet spot should not be a given.

[Lars]

We were bandying around the idea of having the lanes show up for Axis if they had a Intel advantage. Or maybe Advanced Subs instead if that would unbalance Intel. But agreed it shouldn't be a given for Axis.

Good that it's being addressed. Now I can go back to designing other stuff, which will make the boss ecstatic.

[jomorisin]

do the convoy routes change (or can they), game to game? I mean, in an out-of-the-box campaign you know where they are, so whether or not they display doesn't matter for the Axis player, who has memorized those routes.

[SeaMonkey]

Keep this in the forefront Lars. Edwin, we need your help too!

jomorisin, this was addressed in the "enhancement wish list" thread.

We're hoping for scripting of various convoy schemes that could be selected by the Allied player. Changeable every fourth turn or so.

[Edwin P.]

Intel & Convoy Route Idea #1

-If Axis has Intel Advantage over Allies it sees convoy routes.

-If Allies has Intel Advantage over Axis then convoy routes remain hidden from Axis view.

Example: Germany has Intel Advantage over UK and sees all Convoy Routes from Commonwealth Countries to UK and UK Routes to Russia. USA has Intel Advantage over Germany and its routes are not seen by Germany.

Selectable Convoy Route Idea #2

Allies can change convoy routes every X turns/ X months from a dropdown box on the Convoy route sceen. Some convoy routes may incur a penalty to MPP transfer.

Route 1: Northern Route (Default Route) - With the Ocean Current - 100% MPPs transferred

Route 2: Southern Route - Against the Ocean Current - 80% MPPs transferred due to longer travel time - as ships are sailing against the current. (Ocean Current is Clockwise in the Atlantic Ocean)

Route 3: Far Northern Route - 80% MPPs transferred due to longer route. During Winter months only 50% transferred when traveling this route due to bad weather.

[ April 21, 2006, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by Timskorn:

After thinking about it I like the bit of guessing that goes into finding convoy routes. After awhile you get to learn their general vicinity and can find them pretty quickly, and it does simulate a bit the uncertainty of U-boats finding their prey.

It's better than always knowing exactly where you need to position your U-boats because their is a big yellow line running on the tile screaming, "Go Here!". When you look at the convoy map now, it sorta feels like I'm overlooking an intelligence map giving me the general route of the convoys and I have to figure out precisely where they are.

HEY, I got an idea. At the beginning of the game, for example, the convoy routes are displayed but are very rough indicators on where they actually are. The Intelligence research would then also double up on narrowing down exactly where the routes are at sea. At level 1 the convoy route shifts closer to its actual location until at level 5 its precisely where the convoys are.

[Edwin P.]

Or as was suggested - Each Intel Level reveals an additional segment of the convoy route or 20% of the route for each level of intel.

Intel 1 - Reveals the starting segment of the route. (Start to Waypoint 1)

Intel 2 - Reveals route from start to waypoint 2.

Intel 3 - Reveals segments from start to waypoint 3.

Intel 4 - Reveals segments from start to waypoint 4.

Intel 5 - Reveals convoy route from start to destination.

[Lars]

Edwin, ocean currents aren't that big an effect to worry about, unless you're in a square rigger. You'd burn more fuel, but you're still going to get there on time in a steamer.

As far as your second idea of revealing each segment, the convoy route still needs to change from game to game, otherwise you're just going to memorize them. And I don't think the Intel spread is ever likely to get to 3.

And if there is an intel leak, you're going to learn the whole thing. No spy is going to report, "I stole half the route, lost page 2, sorry".

[Lars]

Ya know, thinking about this, for the Brits it might be fun if the U-boat locations pop up if they have the Intel advantage. Say +2? Not going to do you any good if your fleet is gone, or there's a massive wolfpack out there, but still…

[Edwin P.]

Better if +2 UK advantage gave you a 20% of seeing each U-boat location, +3 gave you 40% and +4 60%. Thus you may see U-Boat 1's locations, but not U-Boat 2's which is close by. Simarily for the Axis, they should be able to see the location of RN ships.

To Clarify:

Intel +2 Advantage = Chance to see location of each enemy ship is 20% per ship

Intel +3 Advantage = Chance to see location is 40% per ship. (40% for ship 1, 40% for ship 2)

I would probably reduce this to Intel +2 Advantage = 10%, Intel +3 Advantage = 20%, etc. to see a ship. So that it happens less often.

[ April 21, 2006, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Lars]

Good point, you might not see all of them, depending on type. Don't know if I'd go that high on the levels though.

btw, some good starting material on Battle of Atlantic Intel & Subs here.

link

[TaoJah]

I'd make the convoy map visible as an option on the main map : if you can see them on the convoy map, you should be able to see them on any map IMHO.

They don't change, so it's just a question of experience, after a while you know EXACTLY where they are, so why not just show them ?

[Lars]

Edwin, we might be making Intel too powerful of a tech here, given it's other advantages in research.

Perhaps some of this should be split off into Advanced Subs or Gun Laying Radar. I could easily see a rational for spotting to be put into Radar. As is, the Axis pretty much ignores it, and it's not really a must have for the Allies.

[Edwin P.]

In my view, Intel is only powerful if your oponent does not research it. If both research intel then its useless. My guess is that a player will often have an intel advantage for just a few turns and then it will go away.

I do agree that gunlaying radar is often ignored by both sides. Probably because you can only get two levels in it.

NEW TECH IDEA: Shore Batteries, i.e. like Anti-Aircraft but only good against bombarding naval ships.

Coastal Cities and ports could be enhanced with Anti-Air and Shore Batteries. Shore batteries would cost the same as Anti-Air. If a city is conquered its shore batteries are destroyed.

Shore Batteries Research - Cost 75 MPP, Max Level 2, Reduces Damage from Naval Bombardment

[Blashy]

In a game like Rambor has going, you can be he has 1 chit in GLR. Level 2 battleships and cruisers along with level 4 subs pretty much means the Atlantic is yours for a LONG time.

[Lars]

Yeah, but he's going to pay for it in Russia.

[jon_j_rambo]

Level 4 U-Boats are unsinkable. I have 6 or 7 of them, can't remember. 70% chance of diving!!! You kidding me? How can they be sunk? I will invade UK, and send my subs to the USA, DOW, and sink those starting ships. Hey, I'll follow the Convoy route to the USA.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Lars:

Yeah, but he's going to pay for it in Russia.

There is always a cost somewhere, but if he takes the west out of the war, he can be "patient" with Russia.

[Desert Dave]

rambo jr, off in the wild blue:

70% chance of diving!!! You kidding me? How can they be sunk?

Have you read, and understood the Manual?

Each level of achieved ASW REDUCES the dive percentage; therefore, IF UK CA's have same level as you, your dive % does NOT increase.

You start out with 25 % chance of diving successfully.

Each "advanced subs" achievement increases this by 5 %

Each ASW reduces this by 5%

Then, whereat this 70% stuff? :confused:

**Max you could get, and assuming L-0 ASW, would be:

L-(5) times 5% + 25% = 50 % not wild blue yonder of 70.

______________________________

As far as attacking goes:

USA & UK's CA's have sub attack and defense of 5.

GErmany & Italy's subs have naval attack of 4 and naval defense of 1.

So.

Right from get-go you are ONE BEHIND if at L-0 for both.

In default game, GErmany has L-1 "advanced subs" and so the sub attack of 5 VS the CA defense of 5 results in 1:1 ratio.

You gotta GET AHEAD and STAY ahead in order to be as effective as you'd prefer it to be, true?

[ April 21, 2006, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[John DiFool the 2nd]

70% (30%+10% per sub level -10% per ASW tech) is

what I read in the errata file, as did Rambo (apparently)...

[Desert Dave]

70% (30%+10% per sub level -10% per ASW tech) is what I read in the errata file, as did Rambo (apparently)...

Doggone if you

And jjr aren't RIGHT, JdF2,

And I am plain old - WRONG!

Not the first time, won't be the last, alas.

Just took a quick glance at the latest Manual (... yep, I have to use it as well, so very much to try and remember in all the myriad detail!)

ASSUMING the errata had already been included,

Which, it turns out,

Is not the case.

Wonder WHY I thought it would be?

Oh well.

My mistake.

rambo jr could indeed submerge his treacherous U-boots... @ 70% success rate!

___________________________________

And so.

Mystery solved.

lol.

I had DL'd V 1.01 and put it in different folder than where I keep all my pertinent SC stuff... NOT over-writing the original Manual.

Then, had consulted the correct folder, well, however, therein was the WRONG version of Manual.

Crimeney!

OK, now it is up to date.

Now I am up to date.

As much as I CAN be,

Given my apparent inattention

To ALL!

These seemingly endless details!

ACK!

Alright, no crying in SC Cat House.

I was the one out in wild blue yonder, not rambo jr.

My apologies.

[... second ones today... think it's time to go fall asleep reading Stephen King's latest book, "Cell"... about, well, what else? Cell phones sending eerie messages... maybe I'll wake up! With new and improved! brain cell powers?]

[ April 21, 2006, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]