Partisans

[imported_Rannug]

So what will be new in this area. Will Spain get any partisans? New rules, new nations?

[Edwin P.]

According to the screen shots you can activate partisans for any nation.

I would like to see a Partisan Tech where for each level of Tech you could

1. Activate the Partisan option for a country or

2. Increase the chance for partisans in a country where partisans are active or

3. Activate partisans in your home country.

For example:

Tech 1 Partisans - the Allies may decide to activate Partisans in Norway.

Tech 2 Partisans - the Allies decide to increase the chance for partisans in Norway from 15%/25% to 30%/50.

Tech 3 Partisans - the Allies decide to activate post surrender partisans for the UK. (this means that if the UK surrenders partisan units have a chance to appear in the UK, forces Axis to garrison the UK).

Tech 4 Partisans - the Allies decide to activate partisans in Spain.

A key element of this is that it forces the Allies to make choices. They can't support partisans in every conquered country. They must pick and choose which partisan units to support, supply and train.

[ April 16, 2004, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Blashy]

Good idea Edwin.

[SeaMonkey]

Edwin I understand that this is good for H to H play, but the poor AI is going to be a little overwhelmed if this option is selected, perhaps we should leave this for the editor.

[pzgndr]

The plan is to build on the SC1 method, which actually has two different partisan models. For Yugoslavia the partisans are activated after surrender. For USSR they are activated after Germany attacks. The idea is to make at least these two options available for every country in SC2, plus an option for them to have some type of economic effect like the Russian partisans have but the Yugoslav partisans don't. So yes, Spain and others could now get partisans.

You could make partisans a royal pain all over the board if you want. But we really should keep them limited to where they had or reasonably could have had a strategic effect in a game of this scale.

[Bill101]

Will there be a possibility of large scale sabotage, i.e. the economic effect that the Russian partisans currently have, but without the partisan unit appearing?

In my opinion this would better reflect the majority of resistance activity.

[Edwin P.]

I would like to see the Allies have the option to activate partisans in a user selected country for a Cost - say 500MPP after it is attacked or 250 before the Axis attacks it. That way the Axis will not know where the partisans will pop-up and the Allies will have to make hard choices. Do they divert resources towards aiding partisans and if so where - in Spain, in Norway, in Greece? Do they lay the foundation for partisan activity before the Axis attacks the nation and accept the risk that the Axis may never attack that nation. Or do they wait until the Axis has attacked the nation and spend more to support partisan operations.

[ April 16, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Liam]

Partisans, wouldn't be effected by Technology but rather by the Nationilism and Peoples within conquered lands. I think you ascertain the type of Partisans, where they'd be, and the appropiate way to represent them in SC2 by simply looking at the history books. They weren't in such large groups strength 5 corps though, I can tell you that.

hexes randomely changing control would be more accurate. Operations, failing to work would be a better represenation than knocking down the MPP value of a City, Resource, or Oilfield. etc...

There are so many possibilities with this and indeed many nations had resistance groups especially towards the Nazis it would be good for us to all add our 2 cents here. I will say at the very least Yugo, Spain, Russia and definitely the USA all had basic movements in case of being attacked or conquored real estate. Turkey is a possible and Ireland as well.

[Edwin P.]

Native Revolt - If No Foreign troops in Nation then chance for Nation to Revolt.

Example - Egypt, Algeria

If No UK troops in Egypt then chance for Egyptian military to stage coup and sieze Cairo.

If No Vichy or Axis troops in Algeria then chance for Berber Revolt.

Unlike partisans these units would not be pro-allied or pro-axis.

[Yohan]

Originally posted by Rannug:

So what will be new in this area. Will Spain get any partisans? New rules, new nations?

Shurely (don't call me Shurley) you are thinking of the Spaniards during the Napoleonic Wars?

Today they would just climb into a hole and vote their government out for trying to perhaps fight terrisom and uphold any sort of decent morals.

[Edwin P.]

Thoughts on Partisans

First, the main benefit of partisan units to the allies was that they forced the Axis to devote sizable forces to the garrisonning of conquered countries. Even a small partisan unit of a hundred men could tie down a few thousand axis troops.

HC's Yugoslavian partisan units recreates this effect very well as the Axis must commit 4 units to Yugoslavia or partisan units start appearing.

Secondly partisan units were most effective when they received supplies, training and equipment from the allied forces or their had government prepared for partisan activity.

Third, the numbers of partisan fighters largely depended upon their perceived level of success.

The best way to recreate this is to have the chance for partisan units increase if the partisans control a city hex. The more city hexes that partisan units control the greater the chance for partisan units to appear.

Example the normal chance for partisan units is 15%/75%(75% during winter months) when they don't control any cities and are tramping about the woods. If partisans control one city this may increase to 50%/90%. If the partisans control two cities the chance for partisans increase to 75%/100%. If the partisans control three or more cities then the chance may increase to 100%/100% - producing one new partisan unit every turn - as the partisans now appear to be winning the war against the occupying power.

Thus as partisans liberate cities the chance for new partisan units rises. As the Axis liberates cities from the partisans the chance for new partisan units declines.

[ April 16, 2004, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Bill101]

Yohan wrote on the subject of Spanish partisans:

"Shurely (don't call me Shurley) you are thinking of the Spaniards during the Napoleonic Wars?"

"Today they would just climb into a hole and vote their government out for trying to perhaps fight terrisom and uphold any sort of decent morals."

This isn't a very useful contribution to the discussion, and I presume it is based on your ignorance of Spanish history in the aftermath of Franco's victory (as well as your desire to score a cheap political point, but in the wrong forum for it).

There was a Spanish resistance movement throughout WWII, as well as an invasion of Spain in late 1944 by about 15,000 Spanish troops in an unsuccessful attempt to spark off the liberation of Spain. Exiled Spaniards also fought on all fronts against the Axis, in the French army (especially in the French Foreign Legion), British Army (including the Commandos, the SAS, and training the Home Guard in anti-tank warfare), the French resistance, and even in the Red Army.

One of the first allied units to enter Paris in August 1944 was a Spanish tank company.

To have Spanish partisans in WWII is totally historical. Because they were the losers in the civil war, and also because they didn't have any big international backers (they generally weren't communists, at least not ones aligned with the Soviet Union) their story has been left largely untold and forgotten.

If you want to learn more, then hunt down Antonio Tellez' book on Sabate (his life was even turned into a film by Hollywood) and, if you can read Spanish, Eduardo Pons Prades' Los Guerrillas Espanoles is a good general survey.

But please, no more comments based on ignorance.