Units I miss in Sc2 WaW

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

WaW almost covered all the units I wanted to see in the game.

Still I miss a low cost garrison unit. It’s not very realistic to leave cities completely without defences like you are forced to now.

Same remains with low quality units like Volksturm and UK “Home Guard”, they are not the same thing as Militia/Partisans.

Also I miss elite units like the SS and Soviet Guards. Both played such important roles that they just have to be present.

I’m not a programmer, but I guess it could be done with minor changes. My wishes below I guess could be harder to archive.

For instance it would be nice if you could be able to have different sizes like battalions, regiments and division together with corps and armies in the same game.

HQ should have the possibility to connect to certain units and therefore create Army groups/Fronts.

Finally the retreat option has to be looked into. Its absence certainly cripples the game as it’s now.

This should be treated as constructive ideas and not complains about, in many aspects, a great game.

[ February 09, 2008, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Paul 'Papa' Hausser ]

[MajorRH]

I am looking to include UK Home Guards Units in my divisional / brigade level Sea Lion Mod under development. In the mean time, I have decided to redefine UK Engineer Units as Home Guard. Home Guard Units were actively involved in building various local defences anyway.

Under the Campaign Country Data Menu, you can re-label the unit, redefine its MPP cost, its production delay and combat data to something appropriate.

More unit type selections will offer better game development opportunities.

Cheers,

MajorRH

[Colin I]

I also miss low cost garrison. Think they should be placed in cities or other tiles with good supply but are immobile (they are local resources) and be weak but allowed to entrench a bit extra (they know their own terrain very well). This would let Germans fortify coast of France to historical levels (lots of poor troops in good bunkers), for example. They might also represent some minor countries and even early Russian.

We might need to fix engineer capabilities at same time.

We don't need SS or Guards - game handles elite units already.

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

Colin I

"We don't need SS or Guards - game handles elite units already."

Please explain that more in detail.

In my original post I also forgot to mention my wish regarding motorisation. Level 1 and 2 should have there own icons just like tanks. There level 1 should be motorisation and mean faster transports by road and level 2 be mechanisation and faster transports on roads and flat terrain. The icons could for instance have a truck and a halftrack in addition to the default infantry symbols.

A low prio wish is that Engineers should be able to place and remove mines in low scale scenarios.

Thanks again for your space and time.

[Colin I]

The experience system lets you build units above strength 10. So, a combination of resources and experience can be used to create more powerful units that handle casualties better.

Think this is enough.

[Joshua22]

I think Paul Hausser has a point here. It's true that the game let's you play very experienced troops as elite forces. But Hausser refers to the historical fact of regular forces versus elite troops, say SS versus Wehrmacht, and so on.

I use the special forces as elite shock troops.

But there is no highly mobile armored elite corps... other than your battle hardened forces.

I think the game engine reaches it limit here. It guarantees a simple, fluid and addicting gameplay... but can't step into too much detail.

And I would like to see Volkssturm and garrisons too. Keeps those pesky partisans out.

[aesopo]

A simple soution would be as major mentioned is to relabel the units - you can simply use the editor and rename partisan units for germany as garrison, etc; special forces as SS or red guards, etc. With motorization, you would probably have to edit the icons as a bitmap if you are using 2-D icons. Also allow Germany in unit build data to beable to build the garrison units.

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

Thank you all for your answers and inputs.

Then it comes to elite units, their size 1-15 is not what characterizing them. First of all I want them to be separate units with their own icons. Let’s say with a SS sign, red star, ranger emblem and so on, in for ex. their upper left corner.

Their increased combat strength should be unique for them. Also their morale and readiness should be higher. All to reflect that really makes an elite unit, better/prioritised equipment, higher morale/dedications and better organisation/readiness.

The bottom line here is that SC2 WaW needs to be able to handle more infantry types, then it could be up to us and call them what we want and even create additional icons.

But those basic ones I mentioned in my first post should be added to give the game the flexibility it deserves.

[SeaMonkey]

PPH you do understand the consequences of taking this program into more detail? Terif has already presented his point and it is indeed not without logic. The game has the ability to do what you are asking, maybe not quite as specifically as you would like, but never the less capable.

Look around you, all the masses of humans, all with a little bit different requirements and societies trying to accomodate everyone. Do you see the platform for complication? Ever think about how incompetent humans seem to have become in mass? Maybe they are not really that ignorant, but perhaps they are constantly diluting their attentive essence in trying to keep up with the requirements of living in a complicated society.

There's a lot to be said for keeping things simple. Simple has the ability to adjust efficiently, its not trying to remedy every specific event, take care of every possibility, it requires you to innovate, to improvise.

You want to be free, personal responsibility goes with freedom, they are inseparable. You have the freedom to change SC to a degree, abstract the rest.

[arado234]

PPH when any unit is at a fifteen with the best equipment wouldnt that be considered elite anyway?

Ive had some 15 tanks at level 5 tech. and they just blow right through anything that isnt close to their equal.Im sure its the same with any other unit.That to me sounds like an elite unit.

I tend to agree with SeaMonkey on this one.The game(imo)is maxed out at the campaign level for all the different types of units.

[jon_j_rambo]

Very much agree with needing garrisons or elite units.

[Joshua22]

Yeah sure Panzers 15 at level 5 are amazing... gamewise. They are elite units... gamewise. But it still feels as if you're missing something.

The Volkssturm for example, elderly not well trained men, could be in game mechanics; cheap fast produced units, tough on panzers but vulnerable to everything else.

I haven't got a clue as to how you could make German SS or Russian Guard units in this game. Better organization? Harder to kill? Highly motivated?

Another problem is, how much detail do you want without destroying the gameplay and turning it into a chore?

Oh well, obviously more brilliant people then me are working on this as we speak

Can't wait for the new update.

[jon_j_rambo]

I don't care if they fight better, you just got have some Bunta counters.

[arado234]

I think if you added Volksstrum units it would give Germany to many units unless they somehow came out of the overall force pool.I do think it would look neat if you could give a unit a actual elite icon.

I think rambo is a closet Bunta(ha ha).

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

SeaMonkey

Wow, what a post. ” There's a lot to be said for keeping things simple”. Does that apply on your posts as well?

arado234

Then it comes to level 1-15 I can agree to a point, but not fully. But I’m prepared to rest my case. :cool:

Anyhow, we need for 2-3 more infantry units is as urgent as needed. Then you can make anything you like of it.

My recommendation is still, one garrison unit (soldier standing at attention), one low cost/quality unit (two upright walking soldiers) and one more unit to be able to make a unique elite unit icon (add for instance a red star and so on to an existing icon).

I see a problem in the fact that elite units there in many cases quite different in the warring countries.

SS for instance had its completely own organisation and so on. Its impact on the fronts of WWII should guaranty them a given place in the game. To avoid legal problems you could just avoid the SS name in the German or all versions. Let it be up to us to add the SS in names and bitmap icons. Other countries elite units could be done with no legal concerns I guess.

SS could just be black or darkened versions of the existing bitmaps.

It would be great to hear Hubert’s thought around this.

[pzgndr]

Anyhow, we need for 2-3 more infantry units is as urgent as needed.

The game already provides corps, army, paratroop, anti-tank, and engineer unit types which can all be customized as various infantry types. You can futher customize any unit as elite by providing it tech upgrades, elite reinforcements and HQ support.

Another tank unit type for either light armor, mech infantry or armored cav would be urgent than another infantry slot.

[xwormwood]

Volksturm was quickly drafted, with nearly no training, lousy equipment and stupid leadership (Nazi party leaders, not Wehrmacht).

Maybe these kind of units could be units "drafted" / scrambled out of the production line? You get a corps unit you have already paid for pretty fast ("i want them, i got them"), but therefor these units get no HQ-Support, limited strenghtpoints, no experience, limited tech possibilities and a certain chance that they disintegrate the moment they take heavy losses (fled home), maybe even lowering morale of regular troops nearby.

Elite unts are already in the game, as soon as you build them up properly and get them experience.

You can't buy experience or morale.

But you can transfer it.

Maybe it would be a nice addition to the game if players get the possibility to transfer experience from one unit to another one? The receiving unit could get some experience while the donor unit would loose more experience then the receiving unit would get from the transfer (new unit, new leaders, new equipment, new comrades, so the top notch transfers loose some of their old effecience).

This way players would be able to get Elite Units the historical way. And we wouldn't need some new unit types.

Btw: i really don't want any special SS Units in this game. Just use the bloody rename function, that is more than enough, Special colours? Yawn.

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

Pzgndr

“Another tank unit type for either light armor, mech infantry or armored cav would be urgent than another infantry slot.”

Yes, I agree it’s just as important as some additional infantry units. I mentioned the need of motorization units/icons in my initial post.

Down is a list of units, techs and functions that I think should be added to SC2, prioritized from 1 to 9.

1. Garrison unit

1. Elite unit

1. Retreat function in combat

2. Low quality unit

2. Light tank unit/Armoured car/Scout unit

2. Trucks added to the icon when motorisation 1

2. Halftracks added to the icon when motorisation 2

3. A-bomb tech

3. No ships incl. Transports/Amf should't be able to pass stronger ships w/out getting shot at.

4. Separate Carrier and its air unit/s

4. Naval bomber unit

4. Scout plane unit

5. Mountain units

5. Self propelled AT

5. Self propelled artillery

6. HQ lockable to units

6. Fortifications should be garrisoned as an alternative

7. Sp.Forces tech (move independent from control zones)

8. Mine boat unit

8. Sea mine unit

9. Patrol/Small boat unit

[ February 09, 2008, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Paul 'Papa' Hausser ]

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

xwormwood

“Btw: I really don't want any special SS Units in this game. Just use the bloody rename function, which are more than enough, Special colours? Yawn.”

You think its ok with Special Forces and engineers, but not with SS? :eek:

And then it comes to colours, they had different uniforms. Even thou the reason you give them a own colour is simply because they are not a part of Wehrmacht. Most games use black or dark grey to distinguish them.

I can agree that Soviet Guard units could be regular units renamed, because that was more or less what Stalin did. And then it’s up to you to prioritise them. That’s pretty close to reality.

But SS was unique in having a complete own organisation, a dedication and moral not seen in any other fighting units under the war. As said before, their impact wherever they shoved up was tremendous.

Then you play allied and drop paratroops or land on a beach to find black icons, you should gasp not yawn like the swearing Maggot.

That ads a new dimension to the game, that just should make it even better.

[ February 09, 2008, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Paul 'Papa' Hausser ]

[arado234]

PPH would you suggest giving the SS units better morale and rediness right from the start?In most cases they were much better prepared to fight.

If this is added to the game what would you suggest to be given to the Allies?Remember Russia produced and fielded more Artty. than the rest of the world combined.This is in no way represented in this game.Im assuming this because of play balance.

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

arado234

Yes, that’s exactly what I mean. Also, I want them to have a unique icon to add to the game feeling. These units like, SS and Red Guard, will be even more important if SC2 WaW later on implements the retreat function.

I think more artillery for Soviet and artillery level 2 for USA could balance it.

It’s hard to balance it with infantry then it comes to UK and USA. They were quite poor units, with very few divisions that could be considered elite.

If you read some of the latest books in the subject, some authors even suggest that the west allies were on the brink of collapse. UK and Canadian troops didn’t make much difference at all to the fighting in Western Europe.

Only the effective US artillery and US/UK air superiority were a threat to the Germans, so that should be reflected in the game.

A fully agree to radically increase the Soviet amount of artillery.

[xwormwood]

As far as i know the first SS units wiped themself out of the war because thes were fantical believers, ignoring military wisdom.

Later than they got mostly better equipment than the wehrmacht.

And even later they fought till death because they had their SS-Tattoos and knew if the russians would get them it would have been Siberia or most certainly worse.

I don't know nothing about superior SS-Power.

And no, i don't think adding special forces like the brandenburger were one of Huberts birghtest ideas. In fact, i hate them in a grand strategical game like SC2. Same goes for anti-tank and anti-air units. These units (and even SS) would be ok, if Hubert would have made a Panzer General Ultimate-Edition. But unfortunatly there is no decent game designer out there to continue SSI's legendary work. Sad but true.

[ February 10, 2008, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[arado234]

PPH,I do agree that our absolute control of the air was probably the major deciding factor in WW2,I dont agree totaly with your comment about Western troops not being up to par with their german counterparts.Ive read quite a few books(long left flank being one)where canadian troops more than held there own against all german troops(not always supported by air or Artty.).Usually the SS formations had better equipment than there western counterparts.That alone had a huge influence on the outcome of a battle.Having confidence in your weapons makes a big difference on how hard you tend to fight.

Remember when the Germans were on the advance in the early years they usually had control of the air.I dont believe for one minute that had Germany not taken control of the air that France would have fallen as fast as it did(or at all if the Allies had defended properly).

Yes some of the Waffen SS units were the best there was at combat,but to make a blanket statement that UK/Can.troops didnt make much difference is absolutely wrong.Im sure all the Americans in this forum would agree about the U.S.troops as well.

As far as adding more Artty. to the Russians do you think it would be better to just give the Russian ground units an actual upgrade capability for defence and attack rather than add more units?I think if you add to many units the game is going to get to cluttered.Some here think it is already.

Your retreat idea sounds good but since these units represent corps or armys its hard to envision that many troops all falling back at the same time in unison.The fact that destroyed units can be built back cheaper (provided they were at a certian supply level)im guessing is supposed to represent the fact that some units that were attacked did "retreat to form the bases of the new unit being built.

[Scook]

If there needs to be more tech, more units, THEN, the map size needs to be increased (ie the scale needs to be decreased), and the number of turns needs to change (one week turns). Heck, give me "My Pretty Pony" units for all nations, and give me stacking. Then call this something else, maybe HoI, or whatever, because it won't be resembling Strategic Command I know.

[arado234]

Imo your Right Scook,this game is at its max as far as selection of units is concerned.

I guess you could impliment what PPH is saying about having SS units in the game by just having an option(like sacking a commander for a better one)that asks if you want to upgrade to an SS army.This wouldnt create anymore overall units but just add something that did have a pretty big effect on combat.The problem is what do you give the Allies in return.Since adding more units(imo)is a bad idea,Maybe a higher Ind.and Prod.capability?What does everyone else think?