Retributar Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Moon !..i do agree wholeheartedly with you!...BUT!...what Stragic Command say's i think deserve's to be seriously considered!. True, im sure that for now there is no Knock-Out Blow as to rendering a full solution...but...perhap's some kind of formula' can be devised to accomodate Stragic Command's game request!. Just as a for example!...and im no gaming genius!,..whynot when the German's run out of 'Steam' after going Full-Throttle on the Offensive...they could go temporarily on the 'DEFENSIVE'!. That mean's having 1 or 2 Unit's going to each City and Mine until repairs and Reinforcement's give the German's a chance to recover some of their dissipated offensive strength!. To make this work,..i should think, that only the immediate front needs to have cities garrisoned and any other remaining units filling in the gap's to improve the defensive line!. Air Fleet Units should also be brought up to just a little behind the New-Front-Line to provide air cover for the defending unit's. Hopefully, at that point the Computer AI can make an assessment of deployed units within the region and by some method...determine if a few of them can be redeployed to the new front holding line!. At the same time...new unit's coming off the production lines should be directed to the Holding Line!...as well as new unit orders emplaced as can be afforded!, So...yes...this could mean a 6-month wait for the AI to recuperiate somewhat...but, by then with new researched advancements to help out as well...the overall effectiveness and efficiency of those Eastern Front unit's can be improved!. Let's say just for what the heck!,..that when overall Strength Improves by 50% more than it was before the offensive was halted,...that the AI will be able to evaluate this, and reinitiate the Offensive Onslaught!. We could start with something like that if it's even possible and refine it as it's tested and checked out!...till the new AI feature's indicate a positive feedback in this process!. -------------------------------------------- Another point of interest that Stragic Command made...is that the AI appear's to not be Utilizing to the full the MPP's that it has?. It's not spending them?,...if this is so...then can this not be corrected?. Doing that alone...could by itself drastically improve the performance of the AI!. Anyway!...Nuff said for now! Other than...i think i read somewhere that the AI fail's to 'UPGRADE' it's Unit's with new discovered technological advance's!...if so!...cannot this possible problem be corrected as well?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Retributar, some of the things you described are exactly what the team is working on. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris G Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Unfortunately for me that have bought 2(!) copies of SC2, I can just agree to Stragic Commands disappointment. After a couple of SC2 games I decided to dust off my old Panzer General from the ice age or something. I actually enjoin PG more. It says it all! I haven’t played it since I guess some years after its release during the terra(?) period. It’s a better game in almost every aspect and WITH a good AI. What bull***** (pardon my English) to say that the AI doesn’t matter. The game was marketed as a single player game with a multiplayer option. That’s what I was barging AND paying for. Period! By the way, the friend I bought the other copy to he thinks the game suck so badly that he’s actually making a sacrifice to play the AI to learn the basics to play against me later. Still, I like the idea of the game and am grateful that Hubert has created it as well as trying to improve it. I remember how desperately we wanted it to be released. If he fixes the AI during time to come (that I’m sure he will) SC2 can and will (I hope) be a great game. *) Talking about bull**** always reminds me of jon_j_rambo. “Now, I'm onto complaining about gas prices, we won the war in Iraq…” Won the war in Iraq? Lol We just lost it dude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Chris G, I know this wasn't directed at what I wrote, but I just wanted to clarify that neither Hubert nor us said or think that the AI does not matter. In fact, nobody knows better than us that there is a large silent MAJORITY of people who purchase the game and never post on the forum, and it's safe to assume that they play single player. If we didn't care about the AI, we would have done what most other companies do - spend a couple of weeks on it and that's it. A lot more thought and effort is needed to design an AI which is as open for improvement as SC2's. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 A good thing with digital download is you probably have emails of people who bought it this way and you can send them an email when updates come out. Am I right on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Blashy, we could, but in our privacy statement we promise that we will not spam people's email addresses which they used to place their order. So we can only send out newsletters / announcements to the opt-in newsletter that is available on the news page. But really, the concept of patches is so common these days, that even without such announcements, people will check back to see if there are updates, and any AI scripts (and other improvements) will automatically be part of such updates. I have seen the list of issues Hubert fixed for the 1.01 which is due out shortly (you know, you're testing it , and although definitely not the last word by far, it's impressive already. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retributar Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 A feature i would like to see in the game for UPDATES is to have a place to goto [Main Game Screen_OPTIONS] to either 'Click' the relevant Tab to check for Updates OR!!!,...have another Tab where one could elect to have his game Auto-Check for Updates at whatever selected interval's AND OR also as well to be able to save or to install the Update or to do both!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris G Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Moon/Martin, thanks for noticing that this was not directed against you or Hubert. I’m also, as I wrote, quite aware about the nagging that took place (that I was a part of myself) about getting the game released. I would’ve most probably even wanted the game to be released earlier with a weak AI rather then later with a strong one. Also, I’m confident in that Hubert want consider the game finished until it’s patched up to a high quality level. My irritation is against those in the forum that only see to their own needs and attack (usually new) players in the forum that, quite often, have correct worries or criticism. I'm really looking forward to the 1.01 patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 @Chris --- Son, clean up your mouth, all this swearing isn't healthy. And if you don't know the answer to your own signature question, then that's the source of your problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Originally posted by Moon: Chris G, I know this wasn't directed at what I wrote, but I just wanted to clarify that neither Hubert nor us said or think that the AI does not matter. In fact, nobody knows better than us that there is a large silent MAJORITY of people who purchase the game and never post on the forum, and it's safe to assume that they play single player. If we didn't care about the AI, we would have done what most other companies do - spend a couple of weeks on it and that's it. A lot more thought and effort is needed to design an AI which is as open for improvement as SC2's. Martin That's great Moon. It is all we are asking for. I'm a little tired of those who think AI should not be important to anyone. As an earlier remark made, without those who play solitare there would be little market for these games. SC2 is a great game. It needs a better AI. Once again I would suggest to any computer game company, when a company finally decides to take AI seriously, they will end up with a loyal following and much greater market than if they only worry about head to head game play. No one (at least very few) are suggesting that AI has to match HI (Human Intelligence). They are simply asking for a reasonably competent attack and defense. It should also be expected to be in the game without having to edit and program it yourself. Update patches are to be expected and needed to improve any game bugs and issues, including the AI if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 It's not possible to make a competitive A.I. with a game of strategy complexity...well, unless you had 5 years to do it. This isn't chess where you have deterministic outcomes, thus recursive algorithms can be programmed. Far as Panzer General having a good A.I., you kidding me? They just plant pieces in cities & you roll over them. As a paying customer & a consumer...I don't want the developers spending endless hours working on the A.I., rather, lets start working on SC3! Better yet, Hubert should make the old board hex game "Civil War" by Victory into a computer playable one! Even more, how about making the original Squad Leader TCP/IP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Originally posted by jon_j_rambo: Better yet, Hubert should make the old board hex game "Civil War" by Victory into a computer playable one! Even more, how about making the original Squad Leader TCP/IP? I'd buy both of those, great games. Of course, hopefully they will gome with a reasonable AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris G Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 jjr "And if you don't know the answer to your own signature question... " I do, the answer is: We shouldn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dicedtomato Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Yes, Chris. The Zionist Conspiracy made the U.S. fight in Iraq. We're also responsible for global warming and volcanoes in Indonesia. Don't let anyone mislead you. Controlling the world is hard work! By the way, Chris, my knowledge of geography is only average. But I'd say the only "****ty little country" is the one located between your ears. DT Originally posted by Chris G: jjr "And if you don't know the answer to your own signature question... " I do, the answer is: We shouldn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 @ChrisWrongSig --- Son, hopefully you'll have a change of heart towards SC2 & Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timskorn Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 JJR: Luckily for the rest of us HC isn't making his decisions based on what's good for you or the minor multiplayer community in general. Unless the cash you paid for the game happens to be lined with gold and socketed with gems, everyone else has as equal say as you for being a "paying customer and consumer". The AI doesn't need to be on your level to be competitive to the single player audience, it just needs to be tough enough to be enjoyable for them. I've worked in the game industry for the past 4 years...the majority of buyers prefer single player against the AI. And I'm telling you, HC comes out with SC3 and no AI, that'll be the last game he makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Actually, I think he's going to imprint Rambo on the cd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 @Timskorn --- Who are you to judge what Hubert is doing? Now you call me a minority like I don't count? Listen sporto, my money is just as green as yours. Do you have some statistics to prove your claims regarding this silent crowd? Since when did you become the shepherd of the flock? Quit blasting HC, you sound like an extortionist..."that will be the last game he'll make"....no wonder you need an A.I., you have no friends to play, go play with yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Shoo shoo everybody... Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Shoo shoo everybody... Martin Youse applyin' 'at cradle-to-crib Slum street grokk, why, How very... fly! Now, if only them there Theocratic political party members Wouldst talk More akin To the One what walks in the Garden Without actually imprinting the ground, well, There you go Harp Cat! You gots - RE-SOUNDING... fly. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 The AI doesn't need to be on your level to be competitive to the single player audience, it just needs to be tough enough to be enjoyable for them. I've worked in the game industry for the past 4 years...the majority of buyers prefer single player against the AI. And I'm telling you, HC comes out with SC3 and no AI, that'll be the last game he makes. Couldn't agree more. Thanks again, TK, For all the VERY tedious, though, Surely enjoyable WORK (... as opposed to jerking some jungle-wise Cats around) You have done thus far. Looking forward to your new iterations Once the patch arrives, Very soon - so sayeth Lars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timskorn Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 You count JJR. And so do the 180 people who downloaded my AI mod because they have no friends. The fact is, AI is important. No game ships without one and for good reason, even if it is bad. A lot of games now are also shipping with editors which are primarily used to create single-player experiences. Mods and scenarios can give years of extended life to a game, even after the MP community has gone off to other endeavors. DD: Thanks, and yeah HC has some sweet additions to the editor for the next patch. It's not really tedious though, I enjoy it as much as playing the game. Twisted, I know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Originally posted by Timskorn: You count JJR. And so do the 180 people who downloaded my AI mod because they have no friends. Hey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timskorn Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Haha, sorry...not my words. I'm living proof single player people have friends, I have one or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris G Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 dicedtomato Your words says alot about you ... :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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