Diced Tomato vs. German General Staff

[dicedtomato]

I've decided to take on the ultimate challenge. I'm playing against Terif and Sombra, who are chief and deputy chief of the SC2 German General Staff. Against their legendary Germanic organization and planning skills, I will pit my Anglo-Saxon pluck and grit. And if things get really bad, I will recite the dialogue from that episode of Fawlty Towers ("two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Hermann Goering and four Colditz salads").

My first game against the Axis Sombra ended in 1942, with Russia at IW1 and Germany at IW3. A brief attempt to play the Axis against the Allied Sombra convinced me that I was not General Staff material, so I took the Allies again. It was the summer of 1943 before Russia was crushed, which I considered a moral victory.

Now I'm playing against Terif, who is the only player that scares Sombra. More to come.

DT

[Sombra]

Thank you for high rank but right now my deadliest enemies are:

- Terif

- Dragonheart

- Hellraiser

- Pfeiffer

P.S: PErhaps you can write an AAr of your game against Terif

[dicedtomato]

My battle versus the German General Staff (Oberkommando der SC2) continues with simultaneous games against Terif and Sombra.

Playing against the Axis Terif has taught me a valuable lesson. Never order the UK to invade Iraq unless they bring overwhelming force. Iraq went pro-Axis on the first turn of the game (!)Unwilling to forego 30 MPP, the British moved their Egyptian garrison (minus a corps in Alexandria) into Transjordan and then Iraq. The plan was to take Baghdad and then operationally move back to Suez. But Baghdad held out for turn after turn, leaving the British stranded at the end of long supply lines. Meanwhile, Panzerarmee Afrika and their Italian auxilaries took Suez. The end result was two armies, a corps, an air fleet and O'Connor lost for nothing. Terif is now systematically driving through the Caucuses while his northern armies are now adjacent to Moscow. Property values in the Urals have suddenly gone up.

The really interesting game has been Axis Me against Sombra's Allies. A botched attack on Benelux on Turn 2 was miraculously retrieved when Allied commanders, feeling pity for the inept Teutonic hordes, declined to reinforce the depleted Brussels garrison. But lulled into a false sense of security by Axis incompetence in Belgium, the British stripped Britain bare. All but one army and airfleet were transfered to Egypt, where they promptly took Tobruk in summer 1940.

Fortunately, while the Axis were stupid, they weren't THAT stupid. Realizing that five British armies and corps in Egypt in 1940 had to come from Britain, the Germans launched Sealion with every unit they could muster, plus their fleet and two subs. The lone army in London hung on until fall, aided by suicidal attacks by the British fleet.

Britain fell in fall 1940, just in time for the U.S. to declare war and Soviet war readiness to go through the roof. Germany frantically redeployed German and Italian troops to Poland. Russia declared war in May 1941. Tentative German probes across the border were crushed by Russians with higher IW and AT. However, aided by the Luftwaffe, Riga and Minsk fell.

Meanwhile, Spain joined the Axis. The UK replied by taking Sicily (the garrison had been sent to Russia). More surprising was the Allied declaration of war on Greece, and the landing of an Anglo-American force. Greece fell, but Axis reinforcements punished the invaders, while the Italian and British fleets exchanged blows.

More to come.

Diced Tomato

[Agamemnon]

Taking the UK home island that early will make real tough on the Axis. US and USSR MMP production goes up early. Plus the British Med assets go to 10, so they have an excellent supply situation. The Allies have been out producting then Axis by third to half give or take a few. Good luck. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

[Sombra]

Yes fun game. My anti sealion corps came two turns to late. Still the british empire is much better off in Egypt. Warmer weather , girls are more beautiful....

In 1942 already saw the conquest of Greece, Iraq joined, Norway switched its alliance to the Allies and as Diced Tomato will notice US will come now strongly into the game looking for a colonial empire of its own. Rusia feels securce, winter will come to Rusia soon and already orders are placed for all tank groups avaible . Shukov feels a strong grudge against the Finns. Stalin wants to drink Wodka in Berlin latest 1944 better yet 1943.

P.S: Allies experts estimate that the sealion of Diced Tomato ruined the german treasury. Its no wonder that rusian technology is much superior compared to the 3rd world country named Germany.

[ June 20, 2006, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Sombra ]

[dicedtomato]

If conquering England in 1940 is a mistake, then SC2 is a very strange game.

Diced Tomato

[Sombra]

SC2 is a strange game

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

@ DT: just imagine you were still in school.. you crush some bloke`s nose... it might appear that he sends his bigger brother to get you...

Pretty same situation, isn`t it?

[dicedtomato]

So Stalin is Churchill's bigger brother? Trying to imagine what their father was like.

If taking England is a German mistake, then we need to stop pretending that SC2 bears any resemblance to historical simulation. But for play balance, it does makes sense for Russia to join the war when England falls.

Diced Tomato

[Blashy]

It makes sense for Russia to jump in readiness, but no more. No up in % everyturn.

USA joining right away, I am starting to think it could be the other way around.

The people and media were not for the war and if two of the biggest 3 powers in Europe fell to Germany (France and UK) that would somehow entice them even more so to join? I think the reaction would be opposite, as a slight drop in join %. Simulating Govt reorganization on the situation.

USA would still join around 42 because of Japan's attack, but sooner? I doubt it.

As is the Allies practically wish for a Sealion while all the UK troops are taking over Africa, the Axis can't do anything about it with the whole UK navy controlling MED.

[Lars]

Reduce the value of Egypt after England falls then, and the UK player won't wish so much.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Lars:

Reduce the value of Egypt after England falls then, and the UK player won't wish so much.

No, because that is unrealistic, another country would not drop in value just because. That is a "gamey" deterrent and not a historical one.

[Sombra]

Originally posted by Blashy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lars:

Reduce the value of Egypt after England falls then, and the UK player won't wish so much.

No, because that is unrealistic, another country would not drop in value just because. That is a "gamey" deterrent and not a historical one. </font>

[Lars]

Originally posted by Blashy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lars:

Reduce the value of Egypt after England falls then, and the UK player won't wish so much.

No, because that is unrealistic, another country would not drop in value just because. That is a "gamey" deterrent and not a historical one. </font>

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Sombra:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Blashy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lars:

Reduce the value of Egypt after England falls then, and the UK player won't wish so much.

No, because that is unrealistic, another country would not drop in value just because. That is a "gamey" deterrent and not a historical one. </font>

[Sombra]

@Blashy : Ok got your point now

[Rolend]

No way US jumps in if England falls, in fact I would think had Hitler not declared war on the US it would of been months before the US did so maybe even longer. There was VERY strong feeling in the US that Europe had their war and the US now had its own war. Add in the fact that had England fell I am not sure the US would of got involved in Europe at all.

I know why it was put in the patch, to stop people from doing Sealion. Rather then fix the engine to make it near impossible for the Germans to do Sealion they put in artifical politacal reason not to do Sealion. I hope this gets addressed in a patch.

[Blashy]

Rolend, that was not done because of the Sealion issue. It was done because more than likely the UK would have moved and NOT surrendered if the Island had been taken, I think they even had a plan for this event and I also think the Govt was planned to move to Canada should it occur.

It had nothing to do with Sealion being too easy.

Sealion has been partly addressed with amphibious range reduced. Some minor refining of some sorts might be in order but not much, as I can pretty much prevent a successfull Sealion right now.

USA would have entered after Pearl Harbour, Germany did the DoW as part of their pact with Japan and would STILL have done so because dumbass Adolf would have had an ego twice as big now after having taken UK.

[Iron Ranger]

Now I'm playing against Terif, who is the only player that scares Sombra.

Scares everyone but Rambo

[Sombra]

Battle aginst DT ended yesterday in May 1942. 9 tank divisions supported with infantry and fighter planes pushed the Germans first out of Rusia and then into Poland. Nothing the underteched Germans could do but surrender.

In the hindsight the sealion of DT has been a dissater activating the Rusians and the US much to early.

[ June 22, 2006, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: Sombra ]

[Iron Ranger]

If Sealion is that much of a mistake SC2 has some serious balance issue's.

[Major Spinello]

That North African cities go up to 10 after the UK switches capital can´t be helped with the current engine because this is just an effect of the supply rules (being connected to the capital).

The best thing would be if a patch would introduce the possibility to define a maximum mpp/supply value for every city separately. This would also allow to have more "minor cities" in the game without screwing game balance.

In the meantime I think that Blashy´s idea of reducing US war readiness after UK falls to Sealion is a must. (I don´t think it is quite enough, though, because even without US jumping aboard, the situation for the Allies after they lost UK looks rather better than worse.)

[Terif]

Sealion is only a mistake if Axis don´t conquer Egypt also - cause then it really only brings in USA nearly immediately (+5-15% each turn) and Russia a bit earlier (single event +30-35%).

But as long as Axis go for Egypt (and if they want it, they will get it... ), an early Sealion in version 1.02 is deadly for Allies and usually means Axis victory - not much Allies can do against it against an experienced opponent with the current amphibious landing system and that´s why I can only recommend to use a house rule against early sealions (i.e. before Russia is in the war) .

P.S.: AAR for the game with DT will follow soon .

[Terif]

AAR Dicedtomato (Allies) vs Terif (Axis):

Early game:

All german forces concentrate on Poland, so it surrenders in turn 2 (Plunder 155). German Command prefers not to gamble on the weather and to save its mpps to buy some presents to make people happy - so the combat units have to use their feets to get into the west and are not allowed to use the expensive trains .

During winter time, german air trains at Maginot, together with the early arrivers from Poland. No birthday presents for Britain, so Denmark stays neutral for the next years. Germany is also not in a hurry to raise US readiness by conquering LC and Paris and prefers to invest into diplomacy and research instead (see below).

In April snow melts away and german forces pour into LC and France – they make short process of any resistance. Maginot defenders operate to Paris but can´t prevent its fall very long: June 30, 1940 Paris is german.

In the meantime in the Med:

Italy sent several corps to Africa to strengthen the defences. The whole Royal Navy seems to have a meeting at Malta, together with the french fleet - so Italy prepares a welcome party . In the turn Paris falls, the italian Navy engages the enemy. UK carrier sunk, several ships damaged. German air operates to Sicily.

Unfortunately the last 4 french ground units refuse to surrender their country (chance is 12%...), so the french fleet is another turn alive and able to sink an italian cruiser and battleship in return. Italian fleet has to retreat into port for larger repairs...

Finally France surrenders July 14, 1940 (Plunder 538). Germany already has 750 mpps in research at this point and uses the plunder to buy some units . Royal Navy retreats from Malta after some airfleets show them how unhealthy a longer staying would be and Germany can send HQ, air and several ground troops to help the italians in Africa and to relief Iraq that is under british attack since April 1940.

Diplomacy:

Germany already bought in the first turn 2 chits for Spain, and increased diplo to 5 chits during the next 2 turns. Spain was pretty unimpressed and only increased readiness by 8% in Spring 1940, but in Iraq the german diplomats got a lucky hit with +37% already in November 1939.

Russian cruisers seem to have not heard of diplomatic consequences and do some sight seeing in the baltic. First they upset Finland with maneouvers at Königsberg and then also Sweden when russian tourists polluted the environment by throwing away their wodka bottles at Kopenhagen and Helsinki (readiness raised to 74%).

So Axis splitted its 10 chits between Spain and Sweden, but Spain raised till June 1942 only to 60% and Sweden stands still at 85%. Hungary joined a bit late in April 1941.

Only unusual diplomacy event till now:

UK/France invested chits into Russia and even got 2 early hits before Italy also invested into Russia to cancel them out:

+10% in April 1940 and +14% in June 1940 !

So Russia was already in Mid 1940 at 47%, more than doubling its normal income during this time.

Mid Game:

British forces in Iraq had not much success with their attack on Baghdad. O´Connor HQ provided some supply, but obviously not enough to support a real offensive. So a HQ supported airfleet, 2 british armies, tank and corps were not able to conquer the capital for nearly a year, till german forces arrived in Spring 1941 and finally took all remaining british units there as prisoners.

Due to the successful allied diplomacy, Barbarossa already had to start August 17, 1941:

Nevertheless german forces at full strength, even 2 additional airfleets built .

Combat research at IW 3, AT 2, HT 1 (but Russia ahead in research with IW 3, AT 3, HT 3).

Three german strike forces enter Russia:

The first strike is launched against Leningrad and Moskov by Task Force North while Task Force South conquers the defended cities in the south (Odessa, Kiev). Task Force Caucasus threatens the russian production centers in the east. Nearly simultaneously with Iran, the last 2 countries in Africa surrender to Axis: Tunisia and Vichy Algeria.

Russian forces are all at full tech and entrenched in their defence positions, every city except Riga and Minsk occupied. But in SC 2 with its high attack values and too many possible attack spots, defence is not possible – so already in November 1941 in the west Kharkov with its 2 mines and Smolensk are conquered and Baku with its oil in the east. Leningrad under siege from all sides. 3 axis airfleets make short process after german battleships reduced supply for the defender (i.e. also no reduced buying back) and Leningrad falls not much later.

Siberian reinforcements arrive and in spring 1941 the first heavy battles take place:

Strong russian forces gather at Moskov to attack the only german tank of Task Force North positioned in the mountains near the russian capital. German tank lost, but a dozen german support units (armies/corps) take revenge by killing several russian armies and 1st guard tank. As a result of this misguided battle, Russia also looses its capital.

Simultaneously Task Force South with another dozen strong units - including several tanks, the core of the german tank forces (now catched up to HT 3) - advances towards Rostov in direction of the caucasian front. At the same time the last real battle in Caucasus takes place: german corps lost, but Russia looses its defending units one after one until Tblisi and Grozny are in german hands and the last defenders cut off without supply in the mountains.

So in April 1942 both german task forces unite south of Fortress Stalingrad – russian engineers built 3 fortifications around the city, strong forces protect it supported by 2 russian HQs and both airfleets. So german forces were cautious, waited for their comrades to regroup and 4 german airfleets as support, among them 3 elite fighters with 3-4 bars of experience before starting the final attack on Fortress Stalingrad.

Now we are end of May 1942 (USA prepares for war):

After some small battles Russia retreats its units to the north around Kuybyshev where they built another stronghold with several fortifications and Stalingrad gets conquered by Germany.

Russian forces still intact, some armies damaged, one lost and a HQ shot down to str 1 at Stalingrad, but at least 2 fresh tanks are waiting at Kuybyshev now together with the russian main forces.

Summary so far:

Allies were not unlucky during the early game, especially with the french delayed surrender that nearly costed the italian navy and the 2 early lucky diplomacy hits on Russia with +24% readiness while Axis diplomacy got no real successes till now.

But despite Allies having these advantages compared to the average game and excellent russian tech, Axis still was clearly in the advantage at the start of Barbarossa.

Allies made some faults like attacking Iraq, the battle of Moskov and mistakes in the Caucasus defence, but as long as the SC 2 combat system so heavily favours the attacker, Axis have no problem to simply march through any defender, no matter how fortified a position is.

And so a game will be more or less over before USA with its ressources can make a difference. This game will most likely see some last interesting and bloody battles, but as long as Allies have nothing unexpected in reserve, it should not take very long .

[ June 22, 2006, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[dicedtomato]

In the spirit of Roman gladiators and kamikaze pilots, I challenged the German General Staff to a match, knowing what the inevitable outcome would be. Every session that I played Sombra and Terif, I would first face the sun and shout, "German master players, we who are about to die salute you!"

I would not use my game against Sombra as a test case. I rarely play the Axis, and learning how to play them by fighting Sombra is like learning boxing by fighting Mike Tyson. My Sealion was clumsy and totally impromptu; I was offended that Sombra thought he could leave England defenseless. Even though it cost me the game, I derived considerable satisfaction from proving him wrong.

As it is, the Western Allies are the weakest and least fun side in the game. For the first half of the game, the British can do little more than watch Germany point to any spot on the map and say, "I'll have that." And we want to weaken the Western Allies after Sealion? That doesn't make sense.

The British capital should move to Canada, where it would have gone historically, and where it would be safe. It would also keep Alexandria from instantly becoming the world's biggest supply center.

Diced Tomato